Posted By: Erasmus Folly On: 4/6/2010

Title:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/04/magazine/04animals-t.html?src=me&ref=homepage
Read and learn something Bahamas... open your eyes and your mind!

Posted By: Leslie On: 3/27/2010

Title: Bethel meet his Match

Taneka, your response to Mr. Bethel in your insight article was to the point and very factual. Mr. Bethel should realaize that he is no match for you...take a deep breath Mr. Bethel ...and shut up.... you are not making any sense...and you are no match for Taneka.... Taneka I think you are a great reporter..

Posted By: erasmus folly On: 3/21/2010

Title: ironic

Ironic that you accuse 'us' of herd safety and.a defense of numbers, when in this country, they are on your side.

Posted By: erasmus folly On: 3/21/2010

Title: with all due respect...

We did find something better. It is called philosophy, love of wisdom, or free thinking, civic and ethical behaviour. It is the religious people who celebrate the 'wool' being pulled over their eyes and then try to say that without the wool, we are all animals. I don't see it that way. Man is an animal, whether religious or not. If he is a bad animal with religion, then he will do his nonsense and ask for 'forgiveness'. If a bad animal without religion, he might actually be forced to think things through. You mistake me though. I do not deny your religion or your right to it. On the contrary, I argue that because I respect your right to it, you should respect my right, and the rights of gay people, to not think like you do. If we all allow each other are own 'domain' - our own lives - then things flow smoothely. It is you Christians demanding that others conform to your standards, even if we don't share your beliefs that I have issue with. In 2010, in a modern first world democracy, that is backwards.

Posted By: tim On: 3/21/2010

Title: What makes you think you guys are foreward?

@Erasmus Folly
It is sad that you seek the hypocrisy in others while not being able to see yours. If you can point to enough wrongs done in the name of religion you can then be correct? You are foolish-looking for the double standards in others doesn't mean your standard is correct or justified. Two wrongs don't make a right. How is it you can profess to be educated but won't allow yourself to think outside of the mainstream media. The only response you have to the questions posed is that Christians don't call people sheep? Your trying to distract others with the flaws of man rather than evaluating the positive effect religion has on population. The entire world is comprised of various religions. These religions are designed to unite a group. If you study any history you find that the strongest empires and country had some type of organized religion that was used to pacify. What I am stating is that when you decide to remove this cap you do harm to the collective because without a sense of ultimate justice human beings can become low as animals. Anything goes? You talk about focusing on the real issues-think about it! Remove religion and then think about crime , rape , child molestation in any country. When man does not believe in some higher power he believes in himself. Any anti- religion movement should have an adequate replacement for pacifying our lower natures. You honestly don't childishly believe you can strip religion from a society built on it and then have no negative side effects? The truth is we need more spiritual individuals and not hypocrites in church. You have not evolved enough to process that we all have to live together -the permanent minority should not agitate or influence policies that have an overall negative effect on the whole for their own personal gratification. The same courts that protect the homosexuals are founded on religion and the belief in a higher power. You are so enamored by the singular rights of the few that you would sacrifice everyone. Your basic argument is that everyone should be allowed to do what they want? That sounds good right up until you put a diverse group of human beings together. I am amazed that people look at science and man's creativity and don't think that religion has played a role in how we use our acquired knowledge. Man created religion as a pacifier for his lower nature. If we found something better- we would have that. These religious practices evolved over thousands of years as coping mechanisms for the collective. When we progress past religion where is that going to leave our sense of justice? Advocating movements that are diametrically opposed to the established value system won't have a long term negative effect? It is sad that for some reason we have not acquired wisdom in this day and age. Intelligence is relative to your environment. If I put you in a room full of 1st graders you automatically become a genius .If I lock you in room full of Astrophysicists I am willing to bet your intelligence quotient takes a dip. So far on this forum I have witnessed some very questionable logic. People have used numbers to justify their correctness. This is flawed reasoning -if everyone steals money from the store during the riot-should I?
People have attempted to associate me with Hitler the Taliban and every other republican bible bashing nut job- make a point please! Trying to distract from the point by dressing me as a clown does not make me a clown. Looking like a fool and being one is two different things.
Political correctness over commonsense ? So you folks would prefer the safety of the herd rather than effectively negating the points that I have made. SAD! Life is about balance. Human behavior does not occur in a vacuum -there is cause and effect. Anti establishment in favor of pleasure?
By the way declaring yourselves evolved or educated is flawed that's an observation best left to others,and even then that's subject to scrutiny.
I am not a big fan of organized religion- my point is that it has a purpose. The belief systems that we have established today man invented. They did not not come about and survive if they weren't needed- humanity preserves this behavior. Man is a diverse group -we are a sexual species -that will not change so homosexuals will always be in the minority. When these individuals start to influence the policies that govern the majority we have to be brave enough to question how correct they are. Especially when those policies remove the psychological restraints to behaviors that the collective has classified as taboo. I don't need to gay bash in order to disagree. What is even more disturbing is that for some reason I am not allowed to openly disagree with homosexuality. It is worrying when any movement does not allow for disagreement in these modern times. Perhaps you folks are not as evolved as you think!

Posted By: Erasmus Folly On: 3/20/2010

Title: Sheep

@Tim
A Christian doesn't get to accuse someone else of being a 'sheep'. If you read anything other than the Bible, you would understand why. You follow your 'shepherd' blindly. At 13, I recognized the church in this country for what it was. Who is ahead of the curve and who behind?

Posted By: Erasmus Folly On: 3/20/2010

Title: Backwards!

Remember well the Inquisition, the great burning of books, the 'officially' sanctioned racism of the church, the power plays, the money, the money, the money...
At the turn of the previous century - 19th to 20th, there were 5 million practicing Catholics in Africa. At the turn of the last century, there were 150 million practicing Catholics. Europe's catholic population has dropped 50% or more in that same period. As education and real 'enlightenment' and 'learning' come in, superstition, fairy tales and extreme religious beliefs disappear. In Africa, the lack of education available led to a deliberate strategy by the Pope to expand the 'flock' outside of Europe. South America, Asia and Africa were particularly targeted. The church is a business people - not Christianity or the message of Jesus - those are pure and beautiful. The sooner people come to understand that, the better. How many Bentley driving fools, cheap political 'bash gay' moments, sex scandals with reverends etc will it take before the public wakes up!
The Arab world has locked out math and science. Asia has embraced it. Who is desperately trying to fight off religious fanatics and terrorists and who is booming economically and on the verge of surpassing the Western world even?
Come on Bahamas, religion is not the answer to the problems that we face and so long as we allow these 'moral charlatans' to frame the agenda, we waste time and obsess about things that should be non-issues (ie long behind us) in 2010 - the rights of women, homosexuality and lose focus on the real issues - crime, rape, child molestation - both physical and sexual, armed robbery, corruption at the highest levels of power, etc etc. We need to mature as a nation and recognize the things that are really destroying our society and the things that are just 'hocus pocus' 'issues' that score cheap political points for ignorant people who seek power and not solutions to problems. Sad, that in 2010, we are SO backwards!
The modern democracies have rights for all their people. Are we a modern democracy are a tin pot country?

Posted By: Erasmus Folly On: 3/20/2010

Title: A thought to consider... 100 years old and still appropriate.

It is not their brotherly love but the impotence of their brotherly love that keeps the Christians of today from—burning us.
-Nietzsche

Posted By: erasmus folly On: 3/20/2010

Title: sad indeed...

The only sad soul here is yours, because it is filled with hate. I am glad you let it all pour out so thoroughly for all the world to see. Your points do not warrant a rebuke even, because you didn't even attempt to understand the rights portion of my argument. You are lost in a long dead (with Leviticus) and backwards 'morality'. Enjoy your Taliban mentality as the world passes you by. Sad indeed!

Posted By: Sarah On: 3/20/2010

Title: thanks...

@tim
"How ethical would our society be - do anything you want. That is not freedom- not when you think of the nature of man. As far as our society goes please examine the level of violence and crime then compare it to when the people were more grounded in religion."- If people need religion to be good to others than those people should drop and decrease the surplus population because morality outdates religion and the thought that they are only reluctantly being moral to go to heaven is terrifying. A book shouldnt (and doesnt) determine if violence, hate, rape or murder is ok and if there actually are people who are restrained from doing these only by faith than maybe the gun nut republcans have a point. Its people like you that drove my cousin to suicide and its people like you that will be giving death sentences to the people of Uganada. Strange how the most important commandment can be overruled by peoples lust to kill and repress

Posted By: Old enough to have an opinion, young enough for most not to care... On: 3/19/2010

Title: Just a thought...

While i believe in God, I also believe that each person deserves respect, regardless of sexual orientation, race, or religion. Pastor Bethell brought up these gay cruises and how we as a nation decline...but in this economy, should we really be denying money to our country. I never thought that the money of heterosexual couples was any more green or any more valuable than that of homosexual couples. While im on the fence about whether being gay is a choice or not (because why would someone choose to be ridiculed and belittled like many homosexuals are), I believe in the right to choose what you want as a grown individual. But there are people in our beautiful Bahamaland that believe they have the right to speak for us all, and they dont. Saying that, I bring up the issue with the very popular movie Brokeback Mountain. When that was released into theatres our 'wonderful' Christian Counsel banned it from coming to our screens, and although I was a lot younger, and had even less of a voice, i couldnt understand why. Shouldnt we all have the choice to see the movie or not. Aren't we all grown enough to make that decision. Because you allow gay people on your soil doesnt mean that you support their actions or lifestyle, but they are human just like everyone else, with the same red blood flowing through their veins.

Posted By: tim On: 3/19/2010

Title: Dear Politically correct sheep

@ Erasmus Folly When one can't thoroughly argue a point it helps not to insult your opponent it just makes you seem weak and intellectually stifled. You obviously lost your sense of self. First- your education is not your intelligence a sad fact that you can not clearly discern. Second - how many miles do you have to travel in order to be enlightened. Third -through a series of post you have clearly stated that you traveled, drank the kool-aid and then brought it here. Of course your friends think I am a bigot- they think for you! Two people of the same sex can not have sex. We are sexual beings - meaning it takes two members of the same species that are opposite in nature. If two people of the same sex can have sex, then masturbation must be single sex. Sexual stimulation and sex are two different things. The cogency of your argument is flawed. I already stated that trying to distract from the basic fact that your arguments are not sound- is weak.
You think that we won't have a decline in our society if we decide to allow for the removal of resistance to homosexuality are you nuts. Where are the homosexuals from, that you know? I can tell you that the homosexuals I know are nowhere near as passive and benign as the whitewashed garbage you see on television and movies. Matter of fact one only has to look at our educational system which is infested with lesbians and gays that are just plain helpful to our children.
I can't believe you just posted that list when the majority of individuals are being pressured to conform to UN treaties that inherently go against the beliefs of those countries, and you think that is not bigoted. But I suppose if enough people say it -it must be true-right? Everything has a cause and effect but your so enlightened that you can see the future. Its sad that you can not accept the possibility that there is a possibility you might be wrong.
How ethical would our society be - do anything you want. That is not freedom- not when you think of the nature of man. As far as our society goes please examine the level of violence and crime then compare it to when the people were more grounded in religion. It is true that there always have been homosexuals- there will always be homosexuals but when we condone things that are beneath us for the sake of pleasure your going to have problems. Do we need more problems?
What has been in the international media is the marketing of homosexuality as a non threatening alternative. It is just people loving one another. Yet when you examine how homosexuals have used the court and justice systems of most countries to further their cause . Their actions leave something to be disired. It is wrong to be against religion but still want a religious ceremony to validate a union that is against the religion itself. How could you want a seal of approval from a religion you despise? - that is true hypocrisy. How could you want to be accepted by others but don't accept yourself for who you are at the most basic level?
Human rights are one thing but no one wants to admit that there is a movement a foot by a lost generation looking to give themselves value- as defenders of right. While these people don't care about how right they are- They just want to be politically correct.
Lastly people like you contribute to the 'D' average in this nation .You are so sure that you must enlighten yourself else where- that your current location is not good enough that you devalue the thought process of your own. If you are brave enough try to research and see if there might be some negative effects of the lifestyle. You will find a sad truth-what is life if you as a human being believe in nothing but yourself and pleasure? I doubt you have the strength or fortitude to question your friends. Better yet ask yourself what stops you from trying an alternative lifestyle. While I get a window find a nice big mirror, clean it, and take a good long hard look.
By the way ask yourself why is it so wrong to disagree with homosexuality. Ask your friends if it is an alternative lifestyle why can't you disagree with it and still be intelligent. Even if you don't believe in the bible look at the behavior it is self indulgence and entertainment over life itself.
You are a Sad soul.

Posted By: Erasmus Folly On: 3/19/2010

Title: Marital Rape

Just to recap, this is the same Lyall Bethel that spoke against the amendment to the 'marital rape' law right?
Just for some perspective. These people think it is fine for heterosexual men to rape their women, so long as they are married, but have an issue with a man having sex with a man or a woman having sex with a woman - even if they are consenting adults.
QED or, in Bahamian, NUFF SAID!

Posted By: Erasmus Folly On: 3/19/2010

Title: Mock on!

I ask again, read and understand this fully Bahamas - one list is the countries that support gender equality and the RIGHT of sexual orientation and the other list is those countries that don't:
List 1: Supporting:
All members of the EU: European Union (27) - IE 27 European nations here - majority 'Christian' countries
* France Initiative
* Netherlands Initiative
And: Albania, Andorra, Argentina, Armenia, Australia, Bolivia, Bosnia and Herz, Brazil, Canada, Cape Verde, Central African Rep, Chile, Colombia, Cuba, Croatia, East Timor, Ecuador, Gabon, Georgia, Guinea-Bissau, Iceland, Israel, Japan, Liechtenstein, Macedonia, Mauritius, Mexico, Montenegro, Nepal, New Zealand, Nicaragua, Norway, Paraguay, São Tomé and Prí, Serbia, Switzerland, United States, Uruguay, Venezuela
List 2: Against the Rights Proposal
Arab League (22) All members of the Arab League - IE Majority 'Islamic' countries!
* Syria Initiative
Afghanistan, Bangladesh, Benin, Brunei, Cameroon, Chad, Côte d'Ivoire, Eritrea, Ethiopia, Fiji, The Gambia, Guinea, Indonesia, Iran, Kazakhstan, Kenya, Malawi, Malaysia, Mali, Maldives, Niger, Nigeria, North Korea, Pakistan, Rwanda, San Marino, Saint Lucia, Senegal, Sierra Leone, Solomon Islands, Swaziland, Tajikistan, Togo, Uganda, Zimbabwe
Now, the point of posting this list is that all of the democracies are in the former category and all of the dictatorships, backwards countries, tin pot leaders and lack of human rights countries are in the latter list. Which list do you think the Bahamas, as an international finance centre and tourism centre belongs on?
You mock the 'enlightened' countries, yet are happy to condemn us to a list of backwards, overly religious, corrupt, tin pot dictatorship run, bogus Republics and just accept that. Who is a bigot there? Do you really want to be on the list with the Islamic republics? Do you really want to be thought of as a Taliban like religious state? Come on, you must see the absolute folly there!

Posted By: Erasmus Folly On: 3/19/2010

Title: All the time...

And, I must answer to this, you said, "When was the last time any christian forced you to confess Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and savior. If they forced you - they were not Christians."
This is nonsense and you and I both know it. Living in this country, I have 'Jesus' forced upon me 24/7. Don't be naive or, at the very least, be honest about where we live. People knock on my door proselytizing all the time. When I tell them that I am not interested, they have the audacity to ask me 'why?'. When I explain why, they invariably take offense. I didn't ask them anything, yet they are offended. Ironic no?! So, yes, in this country Christians are constantly forcing their message upon other people. Gays are not telling anyone how to think, dress, act, whatever... they are saying... please, leave me alone, let me live my life, let me have rights just like you, and I will leave you alone as well.
What gays are telling you to 'be gay'? I ask again. What gays are telling other people's kids to 'be gay'? I certainly have never seen or heard of such a thing. If you want to debate, then lets debate, but be honest with yourself and with your assertions. Don't make nonsense assertions or equate homosexuality with bestiality. That is the radical right fringe Republican idiot stance and it deserves to be where it has found its home - in the idiotic mouth of Sarah Palin.

Posted By: Erasmus Folly On: 3/19/2010

Title: Laughable - Mirror indeed - get a window dude!

@Tim
I'm not even gay. I have a few gay friends, who find you to be an ACTUAL bigot though. In fact, I'll go one step further. When I was young and dumb, I used to think like you. Then I traveled, saw the world, opened my eyes, got an education and realized how small, insulated, ignorant and sheltered our island is - pathetically so. I am standing up for human rights - yours, mine and the gay peoples. So, what on earth are you talking about? Did you even read any of the posts or did you just make assumptions about everything as you saw it? Mirror indeed! Perhaps you need to get a window so you can see beyond your solipsistic myopia.
You said, "Will the actions of this minority in this community have a negative effect on the entire group?" To which I respond, absolutely not. They exist already and are amongst already, so what are you afraid of? What consequences? We have rape, murder, incest, child molestation on this island galore, you think gay people are behind that?! Yet, you seem more concerned about two grown men or two grown women being intimate with each other?! Trite, silly, pathetic and the very essence of bigotry! Your lack of sense is appalling and typical of the 'average' D- thought processes of this country. Bloody tragic to live in Paradise with such ignorance everyday! I love rap! Cigarettes are bad for you, but I am happy to let people smoke if they so desire to kill their lungs. I prefer video games to actual violence for sure. Stop trying to 'save' everyone and focus on your own life - you will be much happier for it.

Posted By: tim On: 3/19/2010

Title: Dear Erasmus Folly please find a good mirror

@Erasmus Folly I do not bare you or anybody practicing any alternative lifestyles ill . I think you missed the point by trying to lump me in with the people you obviously dislike. When was the last time any christian forced you to confess Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and savior. If they forced you - they were not Christians. Your brand of bigotry allows you to despise others because they despise you. You can never be completely right about your lifestyle choice because you feel the need to defend your choice. If you truly were comfortable with your choice there would be no need for you to defend your lifestyle. Simply labeling others who don't agree with you won't change the physical nature of man. You are apparently attempting to justify your behaviors using numbers now. How many countries were participants in slavery -Do numbers make you right? If you propagate homosexual behavior what is the effect on the community that has a religious code that is diametrically opposed it it. Will it all be peaches and cream? You missed my point in it's entirety. If I ask you to genuinely step outside of yourself for a minute- away from the perceived dogma of religion. Will the actions of this minority in this community have a negative effect on the entire group? Lastly for some odd reason when we examine world culture we cannot understand that the human race makes flawed decisions;especially in groups. Referencing the numbers of other countries on a list is so flawed. The majority of people do not practice this behavior. Democratically then- the gay and lesbian should refrain from publicly outing themselves. Better yet heterosexuals should publicly declare what sexual acts they engage in at press conferences and we should have four types of bathrooms to accommodate everyone in public buildings. You only want to have your way-but it truly is at the expense of the majority. Proper research into this lifestyle will reveal that it is far worse than the whitewashing and collective group thought that is spread in the media. Cigarettes, violent video games and rap music seem like good ideas if you followed what the mainstream will feed you. It is sad that you so freely label others but don't have the strength of character to do a thorough examination of your own belief system.

Posted By: Evan B. Rutters On: 3/19/2010

Title: ...wow

The only people that made any sense here were Adam and Erasmus. Like really? beastiality? Thats a pretty weak arguement which goes to show that anti-eutopians are running out of any remotely feasible excuse to demonize homosexuals. Really, as Adam said, why bother trying when every other attempt on human repression has lost to universal morality? Why not focus on all the rape and murders committed? O thats right, because heterosexual males are exceptionally more likely to committ a serious offence than homosexuals. And even if you want to go on about the whole "well its not the way to reproduce" arguement than I want you to do something for me. Go to a window. We passed the point of no return (ethically speaking- unless we kill roughly 50% of humaniy) 50 years ago, there is no possible way for the planet to recovery even with green technology and every year as health care improves the population goes up that much more. Maybe there really is a genetic component; after all it is now undisputed that homosexuality is found all across the animal kingdom; could homosexuality be an evolutionary (or God created) trait that becomes more prevailant in times of over-production?...my God I think I just had an epiphany...

Posted By: Erasmus Folly On: 3/19/2010

Title: More trite nonsense!

They are not imposing their view on you. You are imposing your views on them. Them imposing their views on you would be them saying, "You must be gay." I don't hear anyone in the gay community telling you to 'be gay', so stop telling them to 'be Christian'. Not everyone has to share your beliefs for them to be 'valid'. It is only your insecurity in your own beliefs that makes you feel that way - safety in numbers, in the herd, in the flock! Bigoted indeed! Who is the bigot really? Really think it through logically. Who is telling who how to live? Don't be so naive and hypocritical! Besides, you still miss the point. See the list of countries below? This is about democratic rights, not your petty morality qualms. You have chosen a Christian life - that is great for you. I applaud it, wonderful. It means, in theory, that you will be a 'good' person, but just because you chose it doesn't mean we are all obligated to follow you and the rest of your 'brethren' blindly. No one is asking you to change anything about the way you live your life. You are asking other people to change their lives for beliefs they may or may not share with you.

Posted By: Erasmus Folly On: 3/19/2010

Title: Disingenuous Nonsense

Why is it that every time someone speaks about 'homosexuality', Christians start rambling on about 'beastiality' or 'loving animals'. Who brought that up? No one is talking about such nonsense! Get a life man. No one is talking about beastiality, so why are you bringing it up? Ridiculous!

Posted By: Tim On: 3/19/2010

Title: WOW !

@Erasmus Folly
Who told you that you were real? It is amazing that you can not accept your own physical make up and go around telling others to get real!
HA! You are doing exactly what I said you are attempting to- apply a label or making an association that distracts from basic established fact. Whether you are born before history was first written down or 2010 the sky is still blue. The passage of time doesn't necessarily mean progression. Just as age does not mean you have accumulated wisdom. Lumping me in with the idiots and psychopaths makes you feel better go right ahead I'm hoping the more enlightened might listen rather than having some bigot persecute me because of my beliefs and opinion

Posted By: tim On: 3/19/2010

Title: More worried

God loves everybody-sinner and saint. There are different types of love. If you love your dog more than or with the same feelings or regard that you love your wife- you will have a problem. Being distracted by appearance and age or level of commitment to a relationship does not negate the fact that they have a relationship that twist philia into what they want it to be -eros. Just because it is all love we don't make that distinction? This is flawed reasoning. If I had a car should I put brake fluid in the engine- after all they're all oil . Insanity and bravery sometimes look exactly alike. We need to be wise and make note of these differences. Concepts that are unhealthy for the community as a whole should not be encouraged. Homosexuals are not going anywhere. It is a part of the dark nature of man. However when we see nothing wrong with people sexually nullifying themselves for their personal pleasure we find ourselves on the losing end of a slippery slope. If you do not know the purpose of a thing your bound to abuse it. Any minority that are restricted by the majority are going to feel slighted. But seriously is the human race going to spontaneously convert to homosexuality; that is doubtful. So this group is always going to be in the minority. What is crazy is the fact that this group wants to have their view of morality imposed on the majority.

Posted By: Erasmus Folly On: 3/19/2010

Title: Willful Ignorance

@Proud to be a Christian
You said, THERE ARE NONE SO BLIND AS THOSE WHO DON'T WANT TO SEE!!!!!
Who is the one with their head in a book or locked up in a church every week listening to the same opinions over and over again? Can you even decipher your own points? Read a science book or history book recently? Or, you don't do that, because The Bible has 'everything you need'. Willful ignorance is destroying this nation and it is people like you with your Taliban mentality that are a huge part of the problem.

Posted By: Ruth Lane Moushabeck On: 3/19/2010

Title: Love

When I was a small child, the first thing I was taught was: "God is Love". What makes someone Gay is that they fall in love with someone of the same sex. An elderly couple live near me (men) who have loved each other for over 55 years. They are now in their eighties - it's not about sex but about Love. How can Love be un-Christan? It just doesn't make sense to me.

Posted By: Erasmus Folly On: 3/19/2010

Title: Get real!

@Tim
Please, if you want to live in the dark ages, then bury your head in the sand and be my guest. You, Pastor Bethel and the rest of these 'Christians' can meet every Sunday, cower in fear, and pray for all the rest of us. We will all be just fine. Stop worrying about the rest of us and focus on your own lives. Homosexuality has been around since the beginning of time. If you still believe that we are all descended from one man and one woman then I have a story for you about a jolly old fat guy that lives in the North Pole and brings presents for you every year. It is absolutely ridiculous that in the 21st century, so willful ignorance is 'normal' for people to speak about publicly. I have no qualm with Christians, the Bible or Christianity, but that is to the extent that they don't have a qualm with the rest of us. I respect your right to believe what you want. All anyone is saying is, in the 21st century, every man and woman should have the right to decide their own destiny, and in that judgment, there is no partiality. God will judge whomever he sees fit to judge, but it is for their own actions that he holds individuals accountable. The church and the state are separated for a good reason. That separation should now be finalized. The government should not possess the right, in 2010, to tell anyone who they can and cannot date. So long as no harm is done, so long as no minor is involved, two consenting adults should be free to do whatever they want in their own privacy, especially.
You said, "Our minds are designed to work within a collective. What I find so disturbing is the lack of objectivity in the homosexual community." I don't share your 'collective' mentality. I think for myself. I am educated, I went to school, I learned better. I don't need anyone telling me what to think about something. I am a deeply spiritual and ethical person, but I don't need to be part of the 'flock' to know right from wrong. More importantly, to understand that grown people are born free and God will love them no matter, so long as they don't kill, rob, steal, cheat or cause REAL harm to another person. Your way of thinking and that of Pastor Bethel is an archaic throw back to a long dead era. The only other parts of the world that think they way you people do are the extremist Muslims and the backwards African countries. The Bahamas, in 2010, doesn't need to be on the same list with these backwards places. GROW UP BAHAMAS! This is about human rights! About asserting that we, the citizens, cannot be told what to do in the privacy of our own homes by any government - so long as we aren't doing anything to directly harm another human being against their will. Lyall Bethel would be better served speaking out against child molestation, rape, robbery, murder or any of the many REAL crimes that happen every day in our Bahamaland instead of scoring cheap 'political' points by playing 'lets bash gays' for the benefit of his archaic and irrelevant Christian Council. The Council does not speak for the Bahamas. It might speak for Christians in the Bahamas, but that is it. From what I have read, it barely does that as both the Catholic and Anglican church are loathe to join in on some of the positions the Council takes. I don't blame them... the Taliban belong in backwards places like Afghanistan, not in the modern Bahamas. If you want to hate gays privately, go ahead. I for one don't live with hate in my heart for anyone who hasn't directly wronged me or crossed me. Your concerns and worries are trite and silly. The gays are not going to destroy this country - we are doing a damn fine job of that without them having done anything. Get real!
There is nothing bigoted about my position. I don't denounce anyone until they have attacked/denounced someone else. Bethel fired the first shot. I am just not obliged to turn the other cheek when he is attacking a group of people who have never doing anything wrong to him. He certainly isn't following his own golden rule: Do unto others as ye would have them do unto you. Who is the bigot? Who is the hypocrite? Freedom is every man, woman and childs right in this world. Their choices are their own and when they die they will meet their maker on their own terms. Who are you to judge? Does not your own book tell you that judgment is for God alone! Did both you and Pastor Bethel just conveniently skip that section while you selfishly latched on to the archaic and hate filled scripts of Leviticus rather than focusing on the message of love in Matthew, John, Mark and Luke! Typical! People read history! Understand what the church has been up to in its 2000 year history. The message of Jesus and the practices of the church are rarely in step, from what I see. Scribes and pharisees yet abound and they are loudest in the Bahamas it seems!

Posted By: tim On: 3/19/2010

Title: Worried

Being correct does not make you right. Hitler had laws- that did not make them right! The homosexual community in this poor country may be seeking justice, the problem is that it is at the expense of the majority. The foundation of this nation and most western culture is religion. Anything that erodes the established value system will inevitably change us. People fear change - that is a given the problem is there might be good reason. Freedom is not doing what you want anytime you want. It is a contradictory state- you need laws( laws are types of restrictions that are used police and protect the collective.) When you think you can do anything in a vacuum you are a fool. Human beings learn from each other. Our minds are designed to work within a collective. What I find so disturbing is the lack of objectivity in the homosexual community. We get so distracted by the abuse and mistreatment of homosexuals, the ignorance and hypocrisy of our religious leaders and Christians in general that we can't see the forest for the tree. If everyone did what they wanted all the time the human race would end. The passive aggressive nonsense that spouted and regurgitated by a minority group that works against the very nature of the foundations of a society should not be entertained. If you disagree your ignorant or bigoted (Isn't that bigoted?)
The simple truth whether we like it or not if everyone was gay - we would end.
If half of the population was gay we would end. Why? limited genetic diversity , over time this practice would cut us down and leave us exposed to diseases. I find it amazing that anyone who has the smallest knowledge of human history can legitimize these acts as inherently beneficial to humanity as a whole. Homosexuality as a whole is seen as a negative behavior not because a bunch of people decided that they were going out to persecute the local lesbian but because it works against the established order of life itself. Have we progressed so far that we now can decide to make ourselves our own Gods. Or better yet there is no creator. Pointing to the hypocritical behaviors and stupidity of others does not make you right, nor correct- it means that you yourself are taking advantage of the ignorant to satisfy your own ends. If people read more instead of watching television they would recognize the myriad of flawed arguments that the homosexual community uses to validate their behavior. For some reason we think that all our behaviors happen separately in a vacuum - like if we say screw our moral code nothing happens. I would encourage all people on both sides of the argument to read more. Long term behaviors that work against the established moral code of any society have a corrosive effect.

Posted By: A sinner saved by Grace On: 3/19/2010

Title: Unfortunate

It is so unfortunate that in our society we seem not to be able to present our views without attacking the character of an opposing person. Ironically, the person defending "rights" is often the one attacking his opposer for exercising his "right" to voice his views.
Thank you Andron for your comments ......

Posted By: Paul Hanna MK11 On: 3/19/2010

Title: Whatever!

Whatever, if we want to go that way, we will go that way...ughh!!
nothing you can do to change us.

Posted By: Stevie On: 3/19/2010

Title: Lyall's correct!

I have to side with the good Pastor! Homosexuality is not a civil right...sweethearting is not a civil right...beastiality is not a civil right....premarital sex is not a civil right! Do you all see a pattern here?! Sexual activity is a moral issue! There have been guidelines set in place to by what or whomever you call our Creator...you, the individual is given the choice whether to follow these guidelines or not. If for some reason I am attracted to "potcakes", maybe then I should have the courts set aside a bill so that I can marry and have sex with my..well, you get the picture. In my opinion, it is the same with homosexuality...its not a civil right...its your feelings and choice!

Posted By: JJ On: 3/19/2010

Title: Confused

I dont understand this. The people of the Bahamas were largely brought over from Africa as slaves which was religiously justified and now they themselves are trying to use the Bible to oppress another group of people? And people wonder why I have little faith in humanity lol

Posted By: Andron Evans On: 3/19/2010

Title: GOD HAS ALLOWED THIS

Men and women exchange the natural use of the other to pursue their own burning lusts for one another. They exhanged Go's truth for a lie, to do what they want to do. So, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do these things and believing it is right. Off course, I am paraphrasing there, but truth is, IF you believe in God and that the Bible is the word of God, then there is no way around trying to justify ANYTHING that He calls sin. Arguing with persons who outright live comfortably as homosexuals and defend it at every turn; and who denounce the validity of the Bible (which in essense is saying that God Himself is irrelevant), such arguments are a complete waste of time. There is nothing you can do with such people. They will not change their minds because they believe that they are right. The hardest thing for people to do is to say that they are living a sinful life, because people would rather say that about others, than themselves. You will always get the argument from them in which they attack Christians, labelling them "so called Christians" because in order for me to take the spotlight off myself, the best thing to do is put the spotlight on others (whether valid or not).
Leave them be. You just keep praying, remain pure in heart, strong in faith, without blemish, so that you are not found with any fault in God's presence; and continue to pray that the leaders of this country, regardless of their own personal demons, would remain ever mindful of God and His laws, and would therefore make decisions and set laws in place that honors God's way. Remember, even though many say the leaders here are wicked and corrupt (which might very well be true for many), they too can be tools for God IF God wills it (the same way God used the paganistic Babylonians to carry out His will against Israel and Judah on more than one occassion). Remember, God allows all things to happen for His purpose and will, which is ALWAYS perfect and without any imperfection; and ALL things are done for His Glory. In the end, those who live contrary to His will, and are against Him in both actions and words, will only serve to prove His point, when He fulfills His own words to judge and reward each man according to his individual life. While I do believe that Christian leaders must never sit by idle, and MUST ALWAYS speak out against what God calls sin, they should be humble in their delivery. There is a time to be humble and a time to lash out. There is nothing wrong with being passionate about God's will, but in doing so, we must never send anyone or any persons to hell, because God Himself is using those who chose to follow Him, to try and try and try to save those same persons from avoiding hell.
May God bless us all, Christians, non-Christians, believers, doubters, acceptors, rejectors, heterosexuals, bi-sexuals and homosexuals alike! And Christians must remember, that the same God that loved and loves them so much that He shed grace on them through Jesus Christ, loves ALL of His creations, and His grace remains in effect to both saved and sinners alike.

Posted By: topbanana On: 3/19/2010

Title: YES GAYS!!

NO GAYS!! that's brilliant. What does that mean? There are no gays in the Bahamas? We don't want gays in the Bahamas?
Lots of tedious drivel here. Stop listening to religious maniacs and they'll go away in the end. Moral fabric, yawn... Next!

Posted By: Adam On: 3/19/2010

Title: Obviously

Obviously the media is going to portray a more positive light on homosexuality because it is the natural and humane arguement. If this was about racism, the media would be pro-integration, if it was about women it would be pro-women. For over 300 years (the point when good intentions began to outwiegh religious right) the Church has tried to justify slavery, than failed. Than they tried to justify oppressing women, once again they failed. Than it was about keeping the "races" apart, fail. Than it was to keep people in often violent and horrible marriages, fail. Now they are trying, once again, to insight hate towards another minority- homosexuals. Really, why bother? Give up now and accept that those who have truly good hearts will prevail and that the Bible can no longer be used as a tool to discriminate. Hitler even used it to justify the genocide of the Jewish people. Africans, Asians, Muslims, Jews, Woman, Homosexuals, shellfish; all bashed using the Bible and all prevailed in proving their right to a happy exsistence- after enduring mental, physical and judicial torture. When the media begins to portray anti-human arguements in light than thats when people need to worry (just as the Jewish communities in Germany, the women of the Middle East, Africans in the southern US and now the homosexuals in Uganda. I am straight, I am Canadian and I believe in the progress of humanity. What about you?

Posted By: NO GAYS!!! On: 3/18/2010

Title: NO GAYS!!!

NO GAYS!!!...way to stand up pastor!!!

Posted By: Erasmus Folly On: 3/18/2010

Title: Funny Caps

Capital letters don't make it any more true. Funny how it is always those least secure in their ideas/beliefs that feel they have to 'shout' them the loudest. Pride is usually associated with another biblical force, but I suppose the moral of that story is completely lost on the average Bahamian mind. Sad, just sad. Stop telling other people how to live and focus on your own lives. Capital letters and ignorance seem to go hand in hand in the comments section.

Posted By: PROUD TO BE A CHRISTIAN On: 3/18/2010

Title: WAY TO GO PASTOR!

THERE ARE NONE SO BLIND AS THOSE WHO DON'T WANT TO SEE!!!!! THANK YOU PASTOR BETHEL FOR ALWAYS STANDING UP FOR WHAT YOU (AND MANY OF US GOD FEARING FOLK) KNOW IS RIGHT. WE WERE WARNED IN THE BIBLE OF THESE DAYS THAT ARE UPON US. YOUR RESPONSIBLITY TO YOUR HEAVENLY FATHER IS TO LET HIS WORD BE KNOWN AND YOU HAVE. DON'T MIND THE NOISE IN THE MARKET. YOU HAVE TO GIVE AN ACCOUNT TO OUR MASTER ONE DAY AND SO WILL THEY. WE WILL ALL GIVE AN ACCOUNT OF OUR LIVES ONE DAY AND FOR MANY THERE WILL BE WEEPING AND GNASHING OF TEETH. A HEARTFELT THANK YOU! EXCELLENT ARTICLE! DON'T EVER GIVE UP! :-) KEEP ON KEEPING ON BROTHER. GOD LOVES YOU.

Posted By: Erasmus Folly On: 3/18/2010

Title: @facts - My foot

@facts
No, you and your so-called Christian brethren speak for yourselves. You are not The Bahamas. You are a small group of people in The Bahamas. Stop claiming to speak for all of us and stop trying to shove Christianity down everyone's throat. You don't see gay people telling other people to be gay. They are just saying, leave me alone. Yet, all I see is a bunch of hypocritical Christians constantly telling everyone else how to live and be 'more Christian' while they sweet-heart, lie, cheat, steal and fornicate with multiple partners in and out of wedlock. Take the logs out of all your eyes before attacking others for their splinters. Tired of the ignorance in this country!

Posted By: Erasmus Folly On: 3/18/2010

Title: From previous posting...

It is about civil rights - human rights. These people aren't DOING anything to you. So stop acting like they are coming in your home or something. They are simply asking to be left alone; to have the same rights you and I enjoy. What soul are you going to lose because two people hook up that have nothing to do with you?! Stop being so concerned with other people and focus on your own actions, your own works and your own soul - that is the only route of salvation you need to worry about! Their problems with God are their own - not yours. Who are you to judge? You aren't losing any morals. You are simply allowing people to live their lives and meet their maker on their own terms. God says, judgment is mine, so... what is the big deal? How are you offended by what two people do in the privacy of their own home? Why aren't you speaking out about sweet-hearting on this island - which is the real MORAL threat to our society?! Or crime? Or domestic abuse? Or incest? Or human trafficking? Or the 'drug life'? Maybe because it is easy to stir up a bunch of idiots when picking on 'the gays'?! Why so concerned with a few gays?
I close with two lists - one list is the countries that support gender equality and the RIGHT of sexual orientation and the other list is those countries that don't:
List 1: Supporting:
All members of the EU: European Union (27) - IE 27 European nations here - majority 'Christian' countries
* France Initiative
* Netherlands Initiative
And: Albania, Andorra, Argentina, Armenia, Australia, Bolivia, Bosnia and Herz, Brazil, Canada, Cape Verde, Central African Rep, Chile, Colombia, Cuba, Croatia, East Timor, Ecuador, Gabon, Georgia, Guinea-Bissau, Iceland, Israel, Japan, Liechtenstein, Macedonia, Mauritius, Mexico, Montenegro, Nepal, New Zealand, Nicaragua, Norway, Paraguay, São Tomé and Prí, Serbia, Switzerland, United States, Uruguay, Venezuela
List 2: Against the Rights Proposal
Arab League (22) All members of the Arab League - IE Majority 'Islamic' countries!
* Syria Initiative
Afghanistan, Bangladesh, Benin, Brunei, Cameroon, Chad, Côte d'Ivoire, Eritrea, Ethiopia, Fiji, The Gambia, Guinea, Indonesia, Iran, Kazakhstan, Kenya, Malawi, Malaysia, Mali, Maldives, Niger, Nigeria, North Korea, Pakistan, Rwanda, San Marino, Saint Lucia, Senegal, Sierra Leone, Solomon Islands, Swaziland, Tajikistan, Togo, Uganda, Zimbabwe
Now, the point of posting this list is that all of the democracies are in the former category and all of the dictatorships, backwards countries, tin pot leaders and lack of human rights countries are in the latter list. Which list do you think the Bahamas, as an international finance centre and tourism centre belongs on?
People need to understand. This is not a reglious/morality issue at all. This is about the rights of human beings versus their governments. This is about what the government can and cannot tell you to do. This is about whether or not the government can tell you who to date, why, what you can do with that person, and what you can or can't do in the privacy of your own home. It is about RIGHTS, period, not just Gay Rights.
You don't have to be gay or support gays to understand that. This is about freedom versus government control. Get the government out of all bedrooms: yours, mine, gay people... everyone's bedroom. A government should not have the right to tell people what they can and cannot do in their private, personal lives. If it isn't causing harm to anyone else, then government doesn't need to be part of that equation. That is the difference.

Posted By: RUKiddingME On: 3/18/2010

Title: Which constitution are you reading?

Bjoe....Where does the constitution implicitly state that we are a Christian Nation...and where in practice do we ACTUALLY abide by it??...The Christian Council speaks where it is convenient for them...when they want a voice in the press they use homosexuality as their platform...its quite obvious and rather pathetic

Posted By: facts On: 3/18/2010

Title: paster hits out

Erasmus, speak for yourself. No one is taking away anyones right. No one can change the facts, and that is God created Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve! So if Adam and Steve want to carry on, let them, if Mary and Sherry want to carry on, let them. Christians should stand with God, and let it be proclaimed that homosex....and lesbi... is an abomination! So call Mr. Bethel what ever you like, he is right, its time someone stand up for Jesus! because most of the western and european countries have no morals or values left. I say, we clean up the entire nation, from top to bottom!

Posted By: Common Sense On: 3/18/2010

Title: We are a christian nation!

Bahamas may be a christian nation, but so are many more and they are not against gay rights. Bahamas is a christian nation but with all the corrupt officials, gangs, armed robberies, INCEST (homo and hetro) and other problems that charactise it, it sure dont act like one.

Posted By: Jesus On: 3/18/2010

Title: No respect

More bigoted hogwash from a man who claims to be a Christian. It's no wonder some Bahamians have little respect for others when they hang to every word of hatred spouted by this Pastor.
Pastor Bethel's attack on The Tribune and Ms Thompson was totally unwarranted.

Posted By: BJoe On: 3/18/2010

Title: We are a christian nation!

Our Constitution declares, “We are a Christian Nation". That really kind of settles it don’t you think? Implicit in this declaration is an equal abhorrence for every sinful act! The type of progressive thought of which you speak, has resulted in the downfall and destruction of nations many times greater than that of the Bahamas.

Posted By: Erasmus Folly On: 3/18/2010

Title: Pure Ignorance

Which is where they belong - the back pages. We don't need the most hate filled and ignorant members of our society defining who we, the Bahamas, are. Lyall Bethel should worry more about the sweethearting and other nonsense his congregation is DOING, rather than his fear of homosexuals. If he is a responsible pastor, then he would be worried about what he and his congregation are doing rather than what others are doing. Again, this isn't a morality issue. This is about delimiting where the government's power starts and stops. For me, it should stop at my door, so long as I am not harming anyone else. That is what he simply doesn't understand. This isn't about GAY rights, this is about HUMAN rights vis a vis one's government. His ignorance, hate and fear dosn't need to hold back the whole country. GROW UP Bahamas. Do we belong on the list with the democracies of the world or the backwards, corrupt and overly religious Arab governments, African governments and other tin put dictatorships and intolerant morons! Do we want to live in the 21st century or the 17th? Come on Bahamas! Lyall Bethel, please focus on your sheep and let free thinking people figure out how best to protect all of our rights against government control. The church and the state are separated precisely to keep us away from dictatorial 'holier than thou' fire and brimstone people like this! They would ruin the country in a nano-second if we followed their advice. Bethel, please tend to your sheep and realize that this country is NOT your congregation!