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Published On:Monday, March 22, 2010

"God, in His grace, has already revealed the truth. It is our responsibility to seek out that truth, if we so choose. As ministers we have a greater responsibility to seek out the truth because we will be held accountable to correctly teach it,"

African-American minister, K Darnell Giles in the preface to his book, 'What Did Jesus Say? Why The Bible Did Not Condemn Homosexuality'.

By TANEKA THOMPSON

Tribune Staff Reporter

tthompson@tribunemedia.net

NEARLY three weeks after I wrote an Insight article exposing the use of Biblical scriptures to demonise and ostracise gays and lesbians as a fallacy, I became the target of ridicule from one of our country's most prominent clergymen.

In a nearly 3,000 word retort, Pastor Lyall Bethel, senior pastor of Grace Community Church, questioned what authority I have to "passionately lecture" the "unsuspecting general public" on the "gay militant agenda". Juxtaposed next to a photo of the smiling pastor, appearing squeaky clean in a suit and tie, was a lengthy assault on gays, riddled with questionable statistics and quotes primed to put fear and prejudice in readers' minds.

Pastor Bethel, who accused me of naiveté, in his attempt to legitimise his claim that gays are disease-ridden, immoral folk, went so far as to cite the work of "Doctor" E Fields of Marietta, Georgia. "Doctor" Fields has been exposed as a non-practicing chiropractor, known white supremacist, neo-Nazi and member of the Klu Klux Klan. The Anti-defamation League, the United State's leading civil rights agency formed in 1913 to fight anti-Semitism and now all forms of bigotry, has extensive details on Mr Fields' decades-long links to racist and fascist groups.

Conservatives, who in the past have unwittingly cited Fields' material, have publicly apologised and distanced themselves from Fields, the author of "Is Homosexual Activity Normal". In my naiveté, I would expect that an upstanding man like Pastor Bethel, a respected black Christian leader, will follow suit.

But I digress.

As Pastor Bethel rebuked me, he attempted to undermine the gay rights movement. He subversively linked all gays with paedophilia, disease, extreme levels of domestic violence, promiscuity - even providing statistics to claim that gays run a higher risk of getting murdered than their straight counterparts. He also scoffed at my comparison of today's gay struggle to the historic civil rights movement in the United States. Yet he overlooked the thrust of my argument: That there is room for interpretation of Biblical scriptures used to condemn gays and therefore a religious argument against sexual orientation is invalid. But this is an issue I will revisit later.

First, I want to dismantle several statements in the pastor's "enlightened" lecture.

SEXUAL ORIENTATION IS A CIVIL RIGHT

Pastor Bethel lists numerous goals of "the gay militant agenda" , which he said were expressed during the 1993 March on Washington for Lesbian, Gay and Bi Equal Rights and Liberation. His selective account of the event shocked me. I was surprised that he forgot to mention that several high-profile black civil rights leaders threw their support behind the April 25 protest, which called for an end to discrimination of gays in the military. On February 26, 1993, The Washington Post reported that leaders of the National Association for the Advancement of Coloured People (NAACP) endorsed the march, one of the largest protests in the DC area.

"The NAACP has always been in the forefront in the struggle for equal rights," said George Carter, then deputy director of the NAACP, at a press conference ahead of the march. The Post reported that at the time, the NAACP's board of directors had adopted a stance "to end discrimination against gay men and lesbian Americans in areas of American life where all citizens deserve equal protection and equal opportunity under the law."

According to The Boston Globe, before a crowd of hundreds of thousands of exuberant gay men and lesbian women attending that march, Reverend Benjamin Chavis, then executive director of the NAACP said: "We must be against all forms of injustice. We must be against treating all people unfairly, because of their race, their class or their sexual orientation."

This alone unravels one of Pastor Bethel's fallacious statements, which claimed that American civil rights leaders do not empathise with the gay community nor see similarities in their plight. Pastor Bethel mocked me because I drew a correlation between African Americans' struggle for equality to the plight of gays worldwide. "Sexual preference is nothing like skin colour," he writes. "Homosexuality is not a civil right. It is an affront to African-Americans to say having past generations being prevented from taking a drink from a public water fountain or being sprayed down by fire hoses in a public park was on par with preventing a man from marrying another man."

He goes on to quote American civil rights leader Jesse Jackson, who said in a 2004 Boston Globe article that gays were never "called three-fifths of a person in the Constitution". What Mr Bethel does not tell you is that in that same article, Mr Jackson said he supports "equal protection under the law" for gay couples.

And what of Julian Bond, the NAACP's chairman from 1998 until February of this year, a champion to the gay and lesbian community for his fight for the rights of all people? As he received an award from the Human Rights Campaign in 2005, the largest lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender political organisation in the US, Mr Bond was asked if gay rights are civil rights.

He said, "Of course they are. Civil rights are positive legal prerogatives - the right to equal treatment before the law. These are rights shared by all - there is no one in the United States who does not - or should not - share in these rights.

"When others gain these rights, my rights are not reduced in any way. The fight for civil rights is a win/win game; the more civil rights are won by others, the stronger the army defending my rights becomes. My rights are not diluted when my neighbour enjoys protection from the law - he or she becomes my ally in defending the rights we all share.

"For some, comparisons between the African-American civil rights movement and the movement for gay and lesbian rights seem to diminish the long black historical struggle with all its suffering, sacrifices and endless toil. However, people of colour ought to be flattered that our movement has provided so much inspiration for others, that it has been so widely imitated, and that our tactics, methods, heroines and heroes, even our songs, have been appropriated by or served as models for others," Bond said, according to the October 15, 2005, issue of the Atlanta Inquirer.

Mr Bond, as I did in my earlier piece, even compared the controversy surrounding gay marriage to the bigoted criticisms of interracial marriage during eras of racial tension: "We know there was a time, not so long ago, when black people in this country couldn't marry the person of their choice either."

This information is readily available to anyone with an internet connection, yet Pastor Bethel omitted these references from his essay. I wonder why.

THE 'AGENDA'

Pastor Bethel, and like-minded persons, are quick to point out that they are not fighting the gay individual but rather they are waging war on "the gay agenda". Pastor Bethel takes the words of writer Michael Swift - which are widely accepted as satire - and omits the crucial first line of his essay, which puts the tone of the paper into context.

"This essay is an outré (bizarre), madness, a tragic, cruel fantasy, an eruption of inner rage, on how the oppressed desperately dream of being the oppressor," writes Swift in the preface to his 1987 article, The Gay Manifesto. In his hasty essay, Pastor Bethel ignores this introduction - in the typical vein of extremists - only exposing readers to carefully selected portions of Swift's piece. But surely, the pastor can grasp the concepts of satire and farce.

Too many times I've heard the word agenda - which is simply a list of things to be done - used as if it is a secret, evil plot to take over the world (insert evil laugh here). Uber conservatives and fundamentalists throw the phrase "gay agenda" around like a conspiracy theory, as if other minority groups and, people in general, don't have their own interests to push as they fight for their rights to be heard in this unfair world.

"Lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender (LGBT) people are as diverse in our political beliefs as other communities ... notions of a 'homosexual agenda' are rhetorical inventions of anti-gay extremists seeking to create a climate of fear by portraying the pursuit of civil rights for LGBT people as sinister," the Gay and Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation (GLAAD) has stated.

Right now in the United States, there is a heated debate between African-American leaders on whether or not President Barack Obama needs to advance the "black agenda" in the face of rising unemployment levels within the black sector, as the US reels from the job losses brought on by the recession. Embroiled in this dispute is Reverend Al Sharpton, and author and talk show host Tavis Smiley. Mr Smiley - who reportedly planned to host a panel of civil rights leaders and scholars entitled "We Count: The Black Agenda Is the American Agenda" - has lambasted the reverend for saying President Obama does not need to identify a black agenda to properly serve the needs of that community.

A Google search of "black agenda" turns up 20,600,000 results. A search for the "feminist agenda" reveals 895,000 results. A similar search on "gay agenda" provides 5,050,000 results. So if other minority groups are pushing their causes, and proudly label them as agendas, why should we fear one from the gay community?

Because being gay is "vile" with "painful and sometimes deadly consequences," says Mr Bethel.

DEBUNKING THE MYTHS

If a non-objective reader drew nothing else from the pastor's reproof, it would be that all gays are child molesters, infected with a myriad of nasty diseases, violent, and intent on destroying the family. Throughout his piece, the pastor clumps homosexuality with the illicit act of paedophilia, as if the two are interchangeable.

He says that homophobes are right to fear gays as molesters ready to snatch little children out of their beds. He mentions an association - the North American Man and Boy Love Association (NAMBLA) - not mentioning that the fringe group has long been ostracised from and denounced by the international gay community for advocating for legal sex with young boys.

"These goals (of NAMBLA) constitute a form of child abuse and are repugnant to GLAAD," the group has said. NAMBLA has been subject to intense investigation and raids by the FBI, has about 1,200 members worldwide.

However it is not a new phenomenon for people to disenfranchise minorities by painting them all as lecherous fiends.

"Members of disliked minority groups are often stereotyped as representing a danger to the majority's most vulnerable members. For example, Jews in the Middle Ages were accused of murdering Christian babies in ritual sacrifices. Black men in the United States were often lynched after being falsely accused of raping white women. In a similar fashion, gay people have often been portrayed as a threat to children," writes Dr Gregory Herek, professor of psychology at the University of California at Davis, and an authority on sexual prejudice, in the essay Facts About Homosexuality and Child Molestation.

Pastor Bethel says he is arguing based on the facts, and lists a number of dubious statistics detailing, among other things, the high rates of violence, disease and promiscuity among homosexuals. The conclusion he would like persons to reach is that gays are afflicted with these problems only because they are homosexuals. Using his line of thinking, I wonder what Pastor Bethel would say about the high rate of violence among African-Americans in the US? Is it because they are black?

Of course not. What is true however, is that in many countries both gays and blacks are classified as minority groups. As such, they have historically been subjected to discrimination, violence and marginalised. Indeed this pattern repeats itself among oppressed minorities around the world including American Indians, non white Hispanics, etc.

On the question of promiscuity, I don't believe heterosexuals possess the moral high ground on this. Here in the Bahamas the most recent figures released by the Department of Statistics revealed that out of the 5,126 live births in the Bahamas in 2007 - 3,047 of them were to unwed mothers. Young girls between the ages of 15 and 19, who accounted for 604 live births in the respective period, had 581 children out of wedlock.

GAYS AND GOD

After my earlier article was published, I received an email from an angry reader who stressed to me that there should be no debate on this subject because the Bible decrees being gay an "abomination". The reader added that if God intended gays to be a part of the natural order, he would have created "Adam and Steve, not Adam and Eve".

K Darnell Giles, writes that the Creation story and a handful of other scriptures have been used by extremists to justify hatred and exclusion of gays. But this stance is based on "historical church practice and rumours" rather than an educated analysis of the Bible, Giles contends.

He explains that one cannot interpret today's Bible without understanding the cultural context of the scriptures. Scriptures that were translated into English from ancient Hebrew and Greek languages, which may not have had equivalent English translations.

It is argued that God created a man and a woman to populate the earth in His image, something extremists argue is impossible in a gay relationship therefore against God's master plan.

For this argument to hold water, it would have to apply to sterile men or infertile women, people who are biologically or otherwise incapable of reproducing.

"Are these men and women to be cast away by God because they are not bearing His image through procreation? Are they committing some type of sin because they cannot or choose not to produce children? Of course not," says Giles in his book, What Did Jesus Say? Why the Bible Does Not Condemn Homosexuality.

"I believe African Americans, above all other people, owe it to themselves to take a deeper look at the scriptures for a clearer understanding of its teaching on homosexuality instead of passively continuing the marginalizing of this people group.

"For hundreds of years, African American people have been oppressed as homosexuals are today, although in manners and with methods far more harsh.

"Our oppressors misinterpreted the same Bible to enslave our ancestors; and it is now used to marginalize and teach ignorance about homosexuals. The same holds true for how women have been treated in the distant and recent past within church culture and society as a whole," wrote Giles.

WHAT ARE WE FIGHTING FOR?

I don't see it as a stretch to say that Pastor Bethel responded so vehemently to my article because he thought it was a fight he thought he could win - presumably because he feels the majority of Bahamians are on his side. This is not the only way in which Pastor Bethel and the rest of the Christian Council are strategic in their choice of battles - they also choose only to attack issues which threaten their privileged position as self-appointed moral arbiters of the nation.

This is why domestic abuse, crime, violence, infidelity and a host of other problems this country faces are not on their most wanted list - everyone agrees these are social evils. Instead, they choose to rail against sexual orientation, gambling and "immoral" films, as these fall into the category of things they could formerly control, but which an increasing number of Bahamians feel are private affairs.

Lyall Bethel and his colleagues would pretend that in policing perceived "immoral activities", they are merely expressing their right to voice their opinions. But in agitating for stricter anti-gambling laws, urging Bahamians to take a stand against "further infiltration of homosexuality" and attempting to ban certain films from being seen by adults in theatres in the Bahamas, they are pushing for the state to limit the freedom of responsible, intelligent, adult individuals - much like the Sharia law in fundamentalist Islamic societies.

This suggests that they hold a number of assumptions which are incompatible with modern Bahamian society - among them that we are not qualified to make our own moral choices, that we are little more than children and require the enlightened guidance of men of the cloth, and - ironically - that their influence is so weak that they need the law to reinforce their position.

Reader Comments - 374 Total

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Posted By: Erasmus Folly On: 8/14/2010

Title: One more thing...

It is not the gospel that will free the poor, nor will it cure their ignorance... it is education that empowers a human being to think for themselves and be truly free. Our lack of education, not our religion, is what keeps the poor in their prison. Teach a man to fish, and he eats for life. Give a man a fish, and he will come and ask you for another next time. We are very good at giving our people fish, but we teach them nothing.

Posted By: Erasmus Folly On: 8/14/2010

Title: @Just Checking

Discouraged, nothing? I don't have an issue with Christianity per se; I have an issue with ignorance and lack of education. I have an open mind. What has the average Bahamian read beyond the Bible, beyond mere Christian teaching?
What other schools of thought has the average Bahamian read about or taken an interest in? If they had gone through other people's cultures and other people's ways of thinking as well, they might see the world differently than this small island allows for, and it is very, very small. Most people here are sheep, this is a sad, but true fact. They haven't even considered that there is a big world out there in the slightest. They haven't done anything beyond what their parents or their government showed them or even thought beyond the confines of what those institutions have presented.
You speak to me of the 'light', but the irony is, it is the Bahamian Christian who shutters themselves in darkness by simply cowering behind the only thing they have ever known. They don't challenge themselves or their culture. They are willfully ignorant of the world and have the audacity to speak of enlightenment. It's a farce. It isn't the enlightened or educated Christian I have issue an with, they are wonderful people in my experience; it is this great mass of sheep that claims to be moral, better and superior than everyone else without having explored anything beyond their own limited horizons. The world is vast and history is deep. To think that history started with the rise of LOP and that the only other bits that are relevant can be found in the Bible is phenomenally willfully ignorant. This is the core heart of our national problem. People choose willful ignorance here.
Some of my best conversations on a great many issues have been with Christians who have read extensively and found even stronger faith after having done so, but they are not so blind as to believe that the world, as presented literally in the Bible, is the literal gospel truth. They understand it is a figurative and important moral story, a history of sorts as well, and they draw an even deeper faith from that story after having read it critically and comparatively. The universe is almost 14 billion years old. The earth is just shy of 5 billion, yet the average Bahamian Christian believes the world is literally 6,000 years old and that Noah really lived hundreds of years and that the ark could have saved all the species in the world at some point. To believe that... well, Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny come to mind. We have no math, no science, no critical thinking and very limited language skills in this country... and yet the average Bahamian thinks they 'know it all' because of their limited understanding of a Bible most of them haven't even read for themselves. This is our country.
You, just by responding, might not be that way, but most are... do you deny that? We have no 'innovation', no 'progress', no 'development' and we will never have these things, because we keep our people blind, fat, drunk and happy with the opiate of the masses - religion. We will never develop as a nation until we challenge this entrenched idea that to be a 'good' Bahamian all you have to do is go to church on Sunday, praise Jesus and enjoy life. If the whole country accepts that, fine, but, as a country then, we can't whine about our lack of opportunities, our lack of education and our overall powerlessness in the face of global events if we do accept that. We have no right. We haven't done anything for ourselves in the slightest. Doesn't the good book say, God helps those who help themselves? Well, what do we do? We want the Chinese to invest, what do we really know about them as a people? I assure you, they would have studied us a lot more than we have studied them. We are the blind leading the blind, because we accept as gospel truth a very, very limited world view, as a culture. Look at all the countries in the world that are the most religious. What have they achieved? Compare the Far East, China and Japan where religion is limited, to the Middle East, the Arab states for example, where religion is all powerful? Compare them both to Europe? It is not that people of faith can't have their faith, I am all for religious freedom and I think faith is very important, but they can't have these things and ignore the whole world in order to defend them. That is what we do. We pretend that we are 'righteous' in our beliefs, but ignorance doesn't make a person more right. It just means they don't know any better about anything else. To believe something after having explored everything, that is true and powerful belief. To believe, because one is ignorant of everything else and has never even considered the world around them... well. Our little country will never grow or develop to our benefit as a people until we grow and develop our culture and our minds. Culture needs education, dialogue and discourse to grow, just as a plant needs water and sunlight. Culture needs to know its history and it needs at least a limited awareness of other cultures. We sadly, have a very limited perspective on both. In the face of the biggest and loudest culture in the world, the United States, we fool ourselves wholesale if we believe that we can sustain a genuine Bahamian culture by hiding behind ignorance and religion. That is a recipe for disaster. Look at our youth, with each passing year they become more Americanized. The stronger we cling to this artificial 'nationalistic' Bahamian 'culture', the weaker we actually make our own culture and the more we will lose our people to the media circus that is the United States of America, until one day, we will wake up and say... where did our country go and the great host of ignorant and uneducated youth will beg to have another star added to someone else's flag. That is the only path we are currently on. Even this hyper-religion is not a Bahamian development; it is an important from the overly religious American south. We fool ourselves into thinking it is our own. Just look at the strong ties between the American Evangelical churches and our own. There is nothing genuinely Bahamian about any of it.

Posted By: That's the Gospel Truth On: 8/14/2010

Title: Just Checking

"Take the gospel to the poor." The Gospel dispels ignorance as light dispels darkness. To reject God's words is folly on the highest level. Why? Because when men lie and believe lies, the Gospel will tell you the absolute truth so you can become truly free. "For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Jesus Christ, for it is the power of God unto salvation to everyone who believes." Folly what discouraged you?

Posted By: Erasmus Folly On: 8/9/2010

Title: Ignorance

Pointing out scientific facts is offensive? I am proud to be Bahamian, but I am not proud of my country's hatred and ignorance of science. We are an ignorant country, because we have low levels of education. That is a fact. It isn't an opinion. Don't confuse ignorance with stupidity. They are not the same thing at all.
ignorance ('?gn?r?ns)
— n
lack of knowledge, information, or education; the state of being ignorant
Sadly, in 2010, it is an undeniable fact that we are a woefully ignorant people. I don't say this to bash, but to point out a fact. Denial gets us nowhere. The longer we deny reality, the longer we remain in ignorance and the longer we condemn our people to a future steeped in continued ignorance. Our lack of care for math, languages (including English) and science and our obsession with over religiousity will perpetuate that ignorance until our children have only gospels to eat and, like the Taliban, violence becomes the only 'economy' they understand. Is that what we want? That is always the result of too much religion without genuine spirituality, violence. Look around, it is happening already.

Posted By: Diplomatic Citizen On: 7/29/2010

Title: You are Welcome @ To God Be the Glory

No matter where you go, you will always encounter persons who not only are of different beliefs than you are, but who feel as though it's their purpose to critisize or put down anyone who openly disagrees with what they have to say. That is all that I see in this forum. Erasmus you have gone from article to article ridiculing your so called people [Bahamians] and labelling us as what, ignorant, because we try to stand for something? And whether you are homosexual or not is not the point. The point is, I believe what I believe. Leave your comment, then leave. My or anyone else's lack of scientific facts or [your interpretation of] logic does not give you the right to class us as anything. Yes, I am Diplomatic. I put wrong where wrong is and right where right is, regardless of the topic at hand or who may be involved. Don't twist my words, and do not attempt to insult my intellegence or anyone else's on this page as a matter of fact. You speak well, but that's about all to it. Comment if you wish, but I have better things to do with my time. Only curiosity led me back to this page.

Posted By: To God Be the Glory On: 7/21/2010

Title: Thank You

@ Diplomatic

Posted By: Erasmus Folly On: 7/21/2010

Title: @Observing

As our country falls apart... yes. I agree. Respect works both ways is my point. If you ask for it, you have to offer it. Bahamians seem to lack that understanding... sadly.

Posted By: Observing On: 7/20/2010

Title: House Rules

Some good rules hey? Let's all read them again, shall we?

Posted By: Erasmus Folly On: 7/19/2010

Title: @Diplomatic Citizen

My foot your diplomatic... your about as diplomatic as that preceding statement.
You didn't even have the decency to read the posts closely enough to see that no where do I say that I am gay, which I am not. You just assume that anyone defending gay rights must be gay. Typical Bahamian... The prejudice of religious Bahamians blows my mind every time. Their moral hypocrisy, generally, is breathtaking... only the Taliban seems to come close. If you RESPECT people, then give them their rights and let them live their lives. You speak of respect, but you clearly have no idea what you are talking about. Respect would be giving gay Bahamians, our countrymen, their right to live freely just as heterosexual people can. Until we do, prejudice is a moral taint on this country and the ignorance that breathes though that prejudice defiles the very morals Jesus preached. You speak of diplomacy and respect and then hide behind a vain glorious Bahamian morality that has long since shown itself to be bankrupt many times over. Thankful? For what? That we all live in a near theocracy with a lot of ignorant people who think they know things... laughable. That the average Bahamian in 2010 is near illiterate and innumerate? That kids are having kids all over the place and raising idiot children? Perhaps, if Bahamians were more educated they could see the 'light' of reason, rather than the shadow of the church building all the time. Would you consider this an educated country? I am genuinely curious for the answer to that one. I am not gay, but because I defend a gay person, you assume I am gay and then call yourself Diplomatic, yet you read nothing closely of what I wrote or bothered to fact check anything? I really don't know why I bother anymore... this place really isn't worth the effort. The ghetto grows, ignorance grows and Bahamians seem happily complacent to watch their country fall apart... the scariest part is that they think the church can save them... its laughable. EDUCATION! is the only answer! Real education, not bible studies! The universe is more than 13 billion years old, fact. The earth is just over 4 billion years old. Fact. Many different species display homosexual love. Fact. Chimps, are closest relative display homosexual love. Fact. Have you ever even read Darwin? Could you even understand it? Do you even dare to challenge the self-imposed limits you put on your own mental development? Whatever... done with this nonsense.

Posted By: Diplomatic Citizen On: 7/15/2010

Title:

Hmm, I wonder why this topic of homosexuality is the most commented on the Tribune website? All i can sense is the spirit of confusion throughout this web page. To Commonsense and To God b the Glory and all the rest of yall, the bible says, "blessed are you when man shall revise you and persecute you and say all manner of evil against you falsely for MY name sake." I believe what I believe, and I do not have to justify my beliefs or opinions to anyone. No, i do not support homosexuality. I believe that it is not a personal choice, but rather a spirit, as is the spirit of lying, or lust, or alcoholism or drug addiction. I believe that prayer, fasting and repentance can free anyone from any sin or addictive spirit including homosexuality. I know some really nice and "normal" gay people, but that does not mean that I approve of their lifestyle. That's my right. I will not judge them. I may speak with them, see if i can help, but I will not condemn them in that way. Homosexuality is an abomination according to my Bible and my Savior; an entire city (Sodom and Gomorrah) was destroyed for the sin amongst other sins, so I'm not going to argue that gays deserve rights. They deserve the right to be a human being; the same rights that we all have. Marriage is not a right, it's a holy ordinance to be shared between a man and a woman; a spiritual bonding.
All of this confusing and tongue lashing is uncalled for and unneccessary. Mr. Folly and that other person, feel free to do you. As long as you have your basic human rights, please, just be thankful. Our little country is barely hanging on morally by the grace of the Almighty. i don't think that needs to be thrown out of the window now. You are free to go to certain states in America and be wed, free to live wherever you want in holy (or unholy) matrimony. Just please, let's not be offensive. If I do not believe in what you do, that does not make me an ignorant bahamian, or uneducated, or ghetto, or whatever else you claim that we are for not supporting homosexuality. It's offensive for you to even suggest that I am. And, i will never refer to you as a boongie bandit or whatever other derogatory name because it is insulting to you. Respect is what we lack in this country. I may not like you, i might not even accept you, but i can most certainly respect you as an INDIVIDUAL.

All of this confusing and tongue lashing is uncalled for and unneccessary. Mr. Folly and that other person, feel free to do you. As long as you have your basic human rights, please, just be thankful. Our little country is barely hanging on morally by the grace of the Almighty. i don't think that needs to be thrown out of the window now. You are free to go to certain states in America and be wed, free to live wherever you want in holy (or unholy) matrimony. Just please, let's not be offensive. If I do not believe in what you do, that does not make me an ignorant bahamian, or uneducated, or ghetto, or whatever else you claim that we are for not supporting homosexuality. It's offensive for you to even suggest that I am. And, i will never refer to you as a boongie bandit or whatever other derogatory name because it is insulting to you. Respect is what we lack in this country. I may not like you, i might not even accept you, but i can most certainly respect you as an INDIVIDUAL." />

Posted By: Erasmus Folly On: 6/10/2010

Title: And another thing...

Oh yeah... and that hating gays thing. It came from Jamaica with the popular explosion of dance hall. It isn't even a genuine Bahamian thing. That is how lost we are as a people! We used to be a lot more cutting edge! We used to be the jewel of the tropics... we still can be, but not if we continue the way we are.

Posted By: Erasmus Folly On: 6/10/2010

Title: Reality vs Delusion

You know what creates confusion, The Ancient of Days, whatever that means. This universe is 13 billion years old, give or take. This planet is 4.3 billion years old. Your 'faith' claims that this earth is 6000 years old. Who is lying to who? Who is confusing who? Who is deceiving who? You can have your faith all you want, just don't deny reality in order to maintain it. The Bible doesn't have to be taken literally to be believed. Jesus is a wise teacher, irrespective of his metaphysical status. Gay people exist. Get over it already. It's 2010. I don't get mad at your comments, I get depressed at the inane ignorance and willful ignorance that dominates this little island. I get depressed, because it is the ignorance of our people that is holding this country back. The church is happy to maintain and even feed that ignorance, because it maintains their power. The Bahamian people's inability to see that is sad. Very sad. Their willful quest to keep their children ignorant and uneducated because of 'faith' is also sad. Then they turn around and cry for jobs to the government... jobs doing what? Faith healing, nails, manicures, pedicures, what jobs do these people expect government to create for them if they have virtually no skills and no real education? What can you do if you don't understand this world because you willfully turn your back on it? What career, what job are these people seeking exactly? It's pitiful. If you want your faith, that is fine, keep it, but don't hold other's back in the process and don't hate and deny other's their rights because of your pompous, self-righteous, holier than thou attitude. I see nothing but unbelievable religious hypocrisy on this island. It's everywhere. There is nothing Jesus or God like about it. It is a money game, pure and simple and people are played for fools. They think they can 'bank' their way to heaven with their tithes. The entire notion is laughable. Enjoy your delusional world view, but the Reformation happened for a reason 600 years ago. Then again, that is history, so you might not know about history, just religious stuff right? Clarity and true understanding are simply beyond your grasp. Trust me when I say you have no idea what you are talking about. This country has infinite potential, but its own people are their own greatest liability. They don't want to work, to educate themselves, to move forward, to be dynamic... in short, they don't want to keep up with the world in the 21st century. Make no mistake, it will pass them by. When Cuba opens, if this country doesn't get its act together, its done. Who wants to deal with Bahamians if they continue to have the kind of attitude's that they do? Seriously? This country will talk itself to death and then still not take action... until it's too late. Sometimes, you just can't fix something because it is far too broken. I hope and I even pray that this country hasn't hit that point yet. Just look at Jamaica... the 'normal' people defend the drug lords - how crazy is that? They are all church people too. The disconnect is just astounding!

Posted By: Gee On: 6/9/2010

Title: Folly, Oh Folly!

Smile! My! My! My! I sure got you mad, didn't I? Spiritually homosexuality comes under the spirit of confusion. That is the atmosphere in which it can work. But you know what destroys confusion? The Ancient of Days!

Posted By: Erasmus Folly On: 6/8/2010

Title: @Gee

Your argument is, sorry, we are dumb and ignorant and overly religious on this island. We don't understand your complicated 'science' and biology and nature are too complicated for us to understand as well. Please, just let me stick my head in the sand and recite my bible religiously til kingdom come. Good argument right? Sums it up? No one, not one person, has been able to make a scientific argument as to why it is wrong or why it is evil. They just ramble on and on about religious BS. The point of keeping it going is that NOT ONE BAHAMIAN can say why it is actually wrong and what threat it poses to anyone. I could prove a hundred times over that Christianity is bad for your health, but you can't offer one rational argument as to why homosexuality is wrong... that should tell everyone everything they need to know about the hatred, stupidity, fear and ignorance that are the true parents of homophobia!

Posted By: Erasmus Folly On: 6/8/2010

Title: Bin Laden? Hitler? Stalin? The Truth?

The truth? That you are a religious fascist? That you might as well be a Muslim Taliban? That truth? That there is nothing 'Christian' about that kind of comment, that truth? The truth, that the only other people in the world who really think like this were Bin Laden, Hitler and Stalin?
That your position represents the grossest form of stupidity, ignorance, homophobia and probably reveals deep seated insecurities about yourself? That truth?
Where do people come off having such intense homophobia? Does religion make them hate that much? Sad! I thought religion was supposed to be about love... evidently, I have been mistaken for some time. Can we please get rid of all the religious ignorance fascists in the Bahamas? How about some real education and more love, instead of mumbo jumbo and hate?! I had no idea Jesus was into so much mumbo jumbo and hate!

Posted By: What's in it for you On: 6/8/2010

Title: This is so obvious!

Okay, what if you put all the homosexuals on one island (men only). Give them all the food they need, water and so on and just leave them there to live say for the next 55 years. Everyone go back and check and see what happens. Who is still there? There condition? Any hope of this society surviving? It is so obvious...why would the so-called intelligent refuse to want to see the truth?

Posted By: Gee! On: 6/8/2010

Title: Dis da Bahamas Man!

Yall know how it go around here! You can talk till your blue in the face! That won't change the fact that homosexuality is viewed by the majority of Bahamians as wrong and that's just way it is and will forever be! Sitting up on the Tribune's page as some kind of watchdog to keep this pointless argument alive is a waste of time for those engaging in it! Leave off! We love people, and the practice of homosexuality is wrong. Even children can tell you grown men that!

Posted By: Erasmus Folly On: 5/31/2010

Title: Read and think!

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/04/magazine/04animals-t.html?src=me&ref=homepage

Posted By: Erasmus Folly On: 5/31/2010

Title: @Not Impinging anybody's Basic Rights & @Being Real

First, I am glad you learned something by looking up 'impinging'. At least these postings aren't a total waste of my time or yours for that matter. Kudos!
Second, please define 'natural', as you see it. Natural, as far as I can tell, is what is presented to us in 'nature' - in the natural world. Nature proves over and over again that throughout many, many species, homosexual sex is common. It isn't prevalent, but it is common. So, how is it 'unnatural' if it occurs throughout the animal kingdom and has been part of human nature for all of recorded history, approximately 10,000 years of written history thus far? Chimps and other 'higher apes' engage in sex for pleasure, just as humans do. Even dolphins have been known to exhibit homosexual tendencies. So, explain what you mean by unnatural. Nature is the natural world, not some hocus pocus idea of God's natural world or the inane ramblings of some old geyser in a cave who thought he knew God's law. On Bay Street today, I can show you 10 idiots at least who claim to know the law of God and if you took them seriously enough you could start a new religion tomorrow! Nature is the world as revealed by science, not the make believe 'reality' you love so dearly. In the natural world, there are gay people, Noah's Ark is impossible, walking on water is impossible, bringing the dead to life is impossible, rising from the dead is impossible, divining laws from a burning bush is impossible, parting the Red Sea literally is impossible... in the natural world, the rules of Chemistry, Biology and Physics apply... not magic. In the natural world, you can't incest your way from 2 people to 6 billion people. So, please, define what notion of the 'natural' world you operate under before speaking of 'natural'. A world of miracles is not the 'natural' world.
Third, the rest of what you wrote is incoherent rambling. You make few logical points, typical of an overly religious mentality. Why don't you go read Arabic web sites that spew hate about homosexuality and realize just how close your way of thinking is to the primitive Taliban mentality that is currently the scourge of this earth. You spewing hate, in the name of Jesus, who I greatly respect as an ethical or moral teacher, I might add, is deeply ironic. I can't see Jesus saying the things you do about gay people. Can you? Mr. Turn the Other Cheek wants to 'hate' gay people? I doubt it.
Finally, to 'Being Real'. Your understanding of things is so primitive and ignorant that it isn't worth engaging in conversation with you. You really need to read some more and open your mind. To ramble on about entrances and exits like a sixth grader discussing sex for the first time is embarrassing.
To no one in particular: As a Bahamian, I am embarrassed by and for my countrymen. We are embarrassing as a nation in the depth of our ignorance and the passion of our hatred. No one is asking you to be gay or think gay or adopt a gay lifestyle. Get over it already. All that is being said is, live and let live. A gay couple is no threat to you or your children. Get over it! Stop being primitive, ignorant, overly religious and uneducated. Think a little. What would happen to your way of thinking if you, heaven forbid, had a gay child? What would you do? Disown the child? Even the mighty former VP of the USA, Dick Cheney, whose Republican religious nut job right wing fringe hates gays passionately, has a gay daughter and has been forced to admit that he was wrong to hate gay people for political reasons. Stop living in a theocratic lalaland and think DEMOCRATICALLY! Your rights to your way of life are guaranteed and protected, so extend the same rights to your countrymen who happen to be born gay. Yes, born gay. As in the animal kingdom, it is estimated that between 1 in 10 and 1 in 20 human beings is born gay or bisexual. Why this happens, no one knows, but that is NATURE, real nature, not lalaland nature! That is how it has always been. They don't have a choice and no one knows why this occurs yet, because the science of it is all relatively new because people like you prevented people from looking into these things because of fear and hate. There have been homosexuals throughout all of history and there will continue to be homosexuals throughout all of history. If this is the universe that God created, then why do you insist on hating his creation? Why do you insist on claiming to 'know' God's will? It is bizarre that people can have such confidence to claim to know what God wants or doesn't want based on the scrawls of some mad man who wrote the book of Leviticus a few thousand years ago. The New Testament doesn't even touch on the matter. If the Council of Nicea in 325 AD, convened by the Emperor Constantine I might add, hadn't included Leviticus in its 'official' bible, then things might have been different and we could have been spared the thousands of years of barbaric and primitive thinking on the question of homosexuality. Unfortunately, they included it. A group of men included it. They chose it. Just as they chose to condemn Galileo for pointing out that the earth probably revolved around the sun. Their idea of 'nature' is not built on scientific study of the world; it is built on a preconceived fantasy land as written by zealots a few thousand years ago. I find it fitting that the same church that is responsible for condemning homosexual acts throughout history is now racked by scandal after scandal of men diddling little boys. Ironic, yet profound in the depth and scope of its hypocrisy! Comically tragic even, much like the Bahamas today. The maturity of this nation leaves much to be desired. We are an uncivil and undemocratic lot and democracy and civilization hang by a thread here, so long as we continue to ignore the urgent and critical need for far greater investment in education, real education: math, languages, sciences, technology, engineering etc. We have 500+ churches and no university. Is that an accident or is it simply our misguided priorities shoved back into our faces as crime spirals out of control? Our youth have what future? What training? What preparation? Who is lying to who? Who is deceiving who? I have no agenda to gain and no advantage to gain from simply saying to people over and over, think a little more please. Realize that this is a country of limited education and great ignorance and lets work to overcome that. If we don't, we are a lost and more powerful and more advanced cultures will simply continue to dominate us. Independence is found in real strength. The Bahamas has a deficit of real strength because its people are woefully unprepared to deal with the challenges of the modern world. We barely have enough skilled labour to operate our current economy let alone look for growth. Xenophobia and religious fervor continue to keep this place back. Look at all of the countries that are overly religious or theocratic... where do they rank in development? Where do they rank in education levels? In prosperity? In health care? Look to the Muslim world, their over emphasis on religion repeatedly keeps them back. Look at Asia, where education is thoroughly prized and parents stress education above all else, look at their boom! Look at our whimper?! These are not accidents. We are a small country. If we stress education and invest in it more than we do in religion, we will see results and a turn around in 10 years or less. If we continue with business as usual, well, the ghetto will expand and our Paradise may go the way of Jamaica or Haiti. The choice is ours... What do you choose Bahamas? Education or religion?

Posted By: The Boogeyman On: 5/29/2010

Title: Im not afraid of Homos they should be afraid of Me!

Im not afraid of Homos they should be afraid of Me!
Because Im the Boogeyman, and Im going to get ya!, Boo!, LOL
No Really! , lol

Posted By: Being Real On: 5/29/2010

Title: The Exit sign is Not the Enter Sign a Driver who enters at the Exit is Guilty of Driving Living Recklessly, and doesn't care to Obey the Warning Sign! Real Talk

God's Law is Not Homophobic, or not afraid of homosexuality.
Homos and their supporters are so defensive because they know that they are wrong.
Crap don't supposed to hit the Fan but supposed to go down the toilet.
The Exit sign is Not the Enter Sign a Driver who enters at the Exit is Guilty of Driving Living Recklessly, and doesn't care to Obey the Warning Sign!
A rectum is too tight for a penis. but a vagina is perfect for a penis and it can naturally stretch to accommodate the passing of a baby into the real world too.
Thats Real Talk!

Posted By: Not Impinging anybody's Basic Rights On: 5/29/2010

Title: Gayness is not Natural no matter how you sugar coat it!

This one is at Erasamus. Impinge means to make an impression; have an effect or impact; to encroach or to infringe.
If my Christian beliefs are somehow impinging upon the freedom and rights of a group of people, namely homosexuals. Then I would also say that their beliefs are impinging my freedom and rights as well.
I never said or imply that homosexuals are not entitled to their beliefs.
Some Christian people say and believe and have proven that homosexuality is not normal or natural simple.
When I say or a group of people say and prove that something is NOT Normal or NATURAL doesnt mean that I want to take away your Right To Choose that UNNATURAL Something.
At the end of the day a homo chooses whatever they want to do. I cant stop a homo from using the bathroom or eating or drinking that is their body their hunger or thirst. But I can say that a homo throwing their food on the wall and eating off the wall with a Straw. That Method of Eating is NOT NORMAL Or The NATURAL way of eating food.
Just because I say what you do is not normal or Natural doesn't mean I am taking away your choice of eating food off the wall with a straw. Duh!
That is respecting other peoples rights why dont you respect my right to say that you eating food off the wall with a straw is not normal or NATURAL! Freedom of Speech Right!
Erasamus is just blinded by the homosexual agenda. The only way of me expressing my opinion, my mind, and facts to prove that eating off the wall with a straw is not normal or homosexuality is not normal is impinging the rights of homosexuals is by legal laws that outlaw homosexuality or gay marriage.
My opinion or me proving on paper that homosexuality is not normal or natural does not take away a gay right to express their gayness in private or public. But the Law does impinge on whoever rights if the law is against it. That I have no control over which is the law. But politicians do.
So Erasumus saying that some of us Christians and our views and beliefs against homosexuality impinges their rights. Is actually wrong because our Christian beliefs shows that homos are actually sensitive and have THIN SKIN.
As a Christian I am not physically removing a gay person from a foodstore or dismissing them from their employment because only of their gay sexuality that is impinging a gay persons right not my opposing views of their sexuality.
The Problem that Christians supposed to have with gays are their gay sexuality nothing else. We dont supposed to have an issue with a gay person's right to healthcare, a job, or basic necessities. Only their sexuality and how Homos say that it is Normal or Natural.
Why? Because God's Law says that it is sin, illegal sexually speaking and physically not normal, disgusting (abomination), and unnatural. That is not Hate But Law which Christians believe, the Bible is God's Law. The Jews Believe the Torah is God's Law, The Muslims Believe the Koran is God's Law that also speaks against Homosexuality with dire consequences.
Gays have a right to sex but keep their gay sex behind closed doors. Just Like I have sex with my girlfriend in private.
Homosexuality is just counter productive to the human race in regards to sexuality.
Their have been studies done that proves that Homos and lesbian relationships end quicker than their Heterosexual counterparts. And that Homos and Lesbians have more sweethearts than Heterosexuals.
Homosexuality is harmful to the Human Race. A homosexual or homo sympathizer/supporter doesn't see it. All gays want is to be accepted as normal and their sexuality accepted as normal and natural.
But the only compromise with mature and right thinking Christians is this. To be accepted as a Human being or a father or mother or son or daughter who may be gay. We accept the fact that gays do gay sex and we cant control them.
But their sexuality is not, will not be accepted as Normal or Natural. Because a Man acting like, talking like and walking like a woman is not normal or Natural.
I bet you a million dollars that some gay peoples Father at least some of their Father's dont act like a Woman at all or not gay at all.
If gays are born that way. Then they must have a gay gene. But do you have a lie gene. So the excuse for lying is a lie gene now? A rapist has a rape gene? A murderer has a murder gene? a Child molester has a Child Molesting Gene? A Criminal has a Criminal Gene? Someone who commits fraud, extortion or steals have a steal gene?
Come on now lets get real!

Posted By: Erasmus Folly On: 5/29/2010

Title:

And the homophobes continue to pour out of the woodwork... ignorance everywhere it seems! Sad country...

Posted By: Living Real Life On: 5/27/2010

Title: In the Bahamas gays a go around and me dont wan catch it.

In the Bahamas gays a go around and me dont wan catch it.
rude boy dont be silly cove up ya willy. aids a go round an ya dont wan catch it.
Cover up still no matter ya sexuality. But being gay aint normal or natural anyhow.

Posted By: Naturally Speaking On: 5/27/2010

Title: Its the Mating of the opposite Genders which is Natural.

Yeah some of the educated say they dont need God?
Ok Which God are you talking about? the Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, Christian...etc.
In these messed up times people should look to a higher power and human history proves that we dont work well toether our nature is conflict and war and a host of other negative stuff.
Ask yourself historically speaking which religions have benefitted human history mostly for the good for the Most part?
I bet it would be the Christian religion in spite of the enslavement in the name of christianity, war, and other atrocities. But then there is the red cross and massive feeding programs for children and pooor people.
The other religions have done atrocities as well including wars, but no vast huanitarian efforts like feeding people of different cultures and religions like how some Christians do.
the Old testament laws against homosexuality were not about hate but STRICT adherence to a LAW that was enforced. Homosexuality was and still is viewed as Disgusting. ABOMINATION MEANS DISGUSTING. Why because it is NOT NATURAL.From the Jewish God or the Christian God, or the Muslim god.
Why? Because it is proven that mankind was born from natural women who copulated naturally with men and thats how the Human race kept on growing.
How do you think So many poor people have so many children?
How do you think Hispanics are the fastest growing minority in America today?
Its the Mating of the opposite Genders which is Natural.

Posted By: Ian.F On: 5/21/2010

Title: Misinterpreting The Bible

Well put together...I dont have to add an additional 3,000 words..to help in bring accross ..'The Truth'..here...but i would like to repeat again..in order to bring it home...and im sure many of the readers already know of... But the understanding of the Bible is the results of how we read the Bible. Some will say...we should take the Bible as it reads and not 'interpret' it. But 'interpretation' simply means getting the meaning out of a text. In this sense, there is no reading the Bible or anything else with out interpretation. With out a reader, a text is only words..marking on a page. In themselves these markings mean nothing. To have meaning, they have to pass through our minds. Understanding the words, determining the meaning of the text is interpretation. Any time people read anything, they are interpreting. It is important to pay attention to the different ways of reading a text, especially when dealing with ancient texts, like the Bible. The words might suggest one thin to us in the Twentieth Century but have meant something very different to the people who wrote them long ago...This is the area...i feel the churches here fall short of...because it wants to swing back and forward....when the interpretation of certain scriptures...The message is given.. from their own 'personal dis-like'... And it will determine how that message will be shared that morning... Will i use the... 'Literal'... reading today...or the ...'Historical-Critical'... interpretation...in the shareing ..of Gods word.
Thats all i feel to say for now...and Teneka...keep up the great work.....There are many out there... that agrees with all you have being saying....But sadly... these are the ones..that are just talking from within.. 'The Closet'.....
-Ian.F -

Posted By: Erasmus Folly On: 5/20/2010

Title: @Amused

The difference is, in a theocracy, we aren't all equally entitled to our beliefs. In a democracy, you are. Your way of thinking, eventually, impinges upon the freedom and rights of a group of people, namely homosexuals, who do not agree with your beliefs in the slightest. You are not ignorant for having your beliefs, I sincerely respect your right to them, you are ignorant in maintaining that other people should not be entitled to their beliefs in a democracy. That is the ignorant point. You should be entitled to yours, I to mine and the homosexuals to theirs. That is the essence of democracy, respecting other people's rights. I respect yours and the homosexuals. Out of one mouth, you say you respect people's rights to their beliefs and from the other, the religious side, you take them away. So, your view is hypocritical, mine is logically consistent. Hence, your ignorance and my enlightenment are exclusive. It is you who needs enlightenment on this point... not me. To be ignorant of a point is not to be ignorant overall. One aspect or one detail does not define a person's character. My point remains, if Christians want their beliefs respected and unobstructed in a democracy, then they should extend the same courtesy to others. AKA TURN THE OTHER CHEEK or DO UNTO OTHERS AS YE WOULD HAVE THEM DO UNTO YOU! Or, did this country collectively skip that part of the Bible?! I debate you on your own belief system and by your own standards are you indicted! This is the ignorance of Bahamian Christianity. That and the very, very sad belief that the bible must be interpreted literally, which leads to illogical conclusions like, the earth is 6000 years old. Laughable in 2010 that anyone could think that... We do our children a disservice by perpetuating such ignorant nonsense! They need math and science, not lies!

Posted By: Amused On: 5/18/2010

Title: To Erasmus Folly

I have watched Milk. It was interesting, but so was Avatar and Iron Man 2. I'm sure going around calling everyone ignorant works for your ego and pride, but regardless, you have your beliefs and manner of thinking and I have mine. They might never meet, but seriously who cares? Sure, God preaches love, and many times in the Bible, if you read it, you would notice Him showing his wrath against something he considers unrighteous. Still, I surely did not say that I hate anyone. But I guess you're that smart to give yourself the privilege to put words in my mouth. Clearly, you being so defensive means that this issue is sensitive to your heart, hopefully one day, YOU will self-enlighten and stop being so defensive, AND start appreciating everyone's comments.

Posted By: Erasmus Folly On: 5/8/2010

Title: Old Testament hate!

Have you seen the film Milk? Trust me, it is a civil rights issue. You not wanting to see that is your own form of 'racism'. Homophobia is just the step brother of racism. They swell from the same source. Overweening pride and vanity in one's own view being the right view. This is a democracy, not a theocracy. If you are allowed to live your life in freedom and follow your beliefs, then others who share the same rights as you, according to our constitution, should be afforded the same. No one is saying to you, being Christian is evil. So, why should you be allowed to say to others that being gay is evil? If you let them live their lives, they let you live your life. Live and let live. That is the essence of a rights based democracy. You not seeing that is simply ignorance. Hopefully, you will self-enlighten through prayer or something... God preaches love, not hate. Remember that or just live the life of a Scribe or Pharisee and indulge in Old Testament hate.

Posted By: Amused On: 5/6/2010

Title: Not in support of homosexual acts

I am not in support of what homosexuals do, and I stand by that. The reason I don't want to debate with anyone on this matter is simply because I myself am guilty of sins that God also condemns (and yes gay people by writing also, I am infering that you being homosexual is a sin). I am a firm believer of not pointing dirty fingers (or at least go and clean them, then point them). I find, however, that too often we debate on issues that should not even be questioned. Being homosexual is wrong (for those of us who believe in God and that the Bible represents His word) and so are acts such as lying, stealing, cheating, fornicating, yet we don't debate them. all of a sudden because someone got up and said that people are born that way, it's right, and people compare gay rights to black rights? Think AGAIN!!! I would feel insulted if I were one of those fighting for black rights. Anyway, I would love to see the debates after scientists announce that there is a lying gene, and a cheating gene, and even stealing gene, then it would make it alright right?

Posted By: Erasmus Folly On: 5/5/2010

Title: Yeah so..

Clearly Erasmus Folly is gay... Just had to say it...

Posted By: Erasmus Folly On: 4/30/2010

Title: Blah, blah, blah... sheep!

Blah, blah, blah.
Your fairytale quotes are just annoying. Please, have an open mind and don't impose your myths on the educated.

Posted By: Chris On: 4/27/2010

Title: Copied and Pasted for your reading

18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

Posted By: FINALLY On: 4/17/2010

Title: THE END!

LA LA LA LA LA!

Posted By: Erasmus Folly On: 4/13/2010

Title: Real Violence

The real violence is perpetrated every day that we discriminate our fellow Bahamians who are 'different' than us, because of archaic religious edicts in Leviticus - a book in the bible that should have been long since removed, given that it is so obviously archaic. The Council of Nicea should never have even adopted the book as part of the Bible in 325 AD. This would have avoided all this nonsense anyway. Focus on the gospels, not the Old Testament or risk adopting a 'Muslim' mentality in our so called 'Christian' Bahamas. All other Christian nations have moved towards gay rights. Ours is deliberately backwards... why?

Posted By: Erasmus Folly On: 4/13/2010

Title: My posts are full of 'violence'?

Is quoting Gandhi violence? An edge maybe, but violence. Really?

Posted By: Bahamian Christian On: 4/12/2010

Title: The Truth Shall Set You Free

Jesus said that. Jesus is love that is why He tells us the truth because he don't want us to perish and neither do I want to perish nor see anyone else perish for that matter including you and that is why I brave your insults and accusations. The spiritual man can judge all things and yet he is not judged; this too is the Word of God. I am the Lord's servant. I am not into the superiority issue. It is all a bunch of garbage anyway. Jesus said, He that would be great among you, let him be your servant. You seem to have some general formula of what your concept of a Christian is, and what a Bahamian professing to be a Christian is, just remember, not everyone fits into your mold. That is akin to racial profiling. I am not incensed against homosexuals as you are trying to make it appear. As a matter of fact, some of them are more reverent when it comes to the things of God than you, who profess to be their champion, demonstrate. At least some realize they have need of God, while you are outrightly trying to herd them down the path to destruction while offering them "freedom". Your posts directed to me are full of violence but "I am dwelling in the secret place of the Most High, and abiding under the shadow of the Almighty; and I say of the LORD, He is my refuge and my fortress, my God in Him will I trust. Surely He shall deliver me from the snare of the fowler and the noisome pestilence. He shall cover me with his feathers, and under his wings shall I trust; His truth shall be my shield and buckler..." and so on. However, like a dear man of God said to those who were incensed against him for the gospel's sake. "You can cut me up into a million pieces, but every piece will still be saying 'I love you!'" (Ref. "The Cross and the Switchblade.") Folly, I too say, I love you and am praying for you.

Posted By: Erasmus Folly On: 4/12/2010

Title: Judgment or love!

Then perish I will and gladly. Don't bully me into believing your religion. I am not judging you - that is the difference. I don't think you inferior for your beliefs. I just disagree with them. You think me inferior for not sharing your beliefs. Hence, the need for human rights. You believe that your beliefs make you better than me. Too me, that is as insulting as someone believing that their race makes them better than someone else. It doesn't. Christians put too much emphasis on belief in Jesus and do foolery Monday to Saturday. They don't put enough emphasis on good deeds and good works and living a life of integrity and leading by example. They would rather pray for the 'sins' of others than focus on their own lives. I repeat. I am not judging you. You judge me and you judge the homosexuals whose rights I am advocating for - even though I don't share/follow/agree with their beliefs. Who is the hypocrite? If Jesus says do not judge, yet judge you do. I don't care for Jesus miracles. I value his ethical teachings as a man, but nothing more. You judging me for that fact is actually betraying the teachings of your own sworn master and lord. I say again, who is the hypocrite? What was Jesus true message? Judgment or love?

Posted By: To God be the Glory On: 4/12/2010

Title: Telling People How to Live

For a good example of this, please re-read what you write.
Judging others, re-read what you write.
We are our brothers keepers. It was Cain who killed his brother who said "Am I my brother's keeper?" Jesus Christ did not just leave the sick, sinful, oppressed, depressed, possessed alone, he taught them, healed, delivered, saved and set them free. He did not forsake any who put their trust in Him. He told His disciples to do the same. Our commission and the way we do things come from Him and not mortal man. This gives everyone free choice to accept or reject the message. The message must be proclaimed because "Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." Because you obviously don't understand the spiritual realm, you don't realize that the sins of mankind affect all of us, just like the righteousness of mankind affect us all. If one person stands for what is right, it has an effect to dispel a thousand bent on wrong. If two stand, it is even greater. Food for thought. I'm not just concerned about gays, being a former sinner myself, I am concerned about all sins, because I know this is the truth: 'The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ Our Lord."
We cannot save ourselves by our ethics or good works--you cannot work for salvation, you must believe in Jesus Christ who sacrificed his life to pay the price for all our sins. You must believe. If not, Jesus says you will perish.

Posted By: Erasmus Folly On: 4/10/2010

Title: Burke

In a democracy, the majority of the citizens is capable of exercising the most cruel oppressions upon the minority.
Edmund Burke

Posted By: Erasmus Folly On: 4/10/2010

Title: One more time...

A stark choice... this is what it is about.
You lose nothing. It is about civil rights - human rights. These people aren't DOING anything to you. So stop acting like they are coming in your home or something. They are simply asking to be left alone; to have the same rights you and I enjoy. What are you talking about? What soul are you going to lose because two people hook up that have nothing to do with you. Stop being so concerned with other people and focus on your own actions, your own works and your own soul - that is the only route of salvation you need to worry about. Their problems with God are their own - not yours. Who are you to judge? You aren't losing any morals. You are simply allowing people to live their lives and meet their maker on their own terms. God says, judgment is mine, so... what is the big deal? How are you offended by what two people do in the privacy of their own home? Why aren't you speaking out about sweet-hearting on this island - which is the real MORAL threat to our society?! Why so concerned with a few gays?
I close with two lists:
List 1: Supporting:
All members of the EU: European Union (27)
* France Initiative
* Netherlands Initiative
And: Albania, Andorra, Argentina, Armenia, Australia, Bolivia, Bosnia and Herz, Brazil, Canada, Cape Verde, Central African Rep, Chile, Colombia, Cuba, Croatia, East Timor, Ecuador, Gabon, Georgia, Guinea-Bissau, Iceland, Israel, Japan, Liechtenstein, Macedonia, Mauritius, Mexico, Montenegro, Nepal, New Zealand, Nicaragua, Norway, Paraguay, São Tomé and Prí, Serbia, Switzerland, United States, Uruguay, Venezuela
List 2: Against
Arab League (22)
* Syria Initiative
Afghanistan, Bangladesh, Benin, Brunei, Cameroon, Chad, Côte d'Ivoire, Eritrea, Ethiopia, Fiji, The Gambia, Guinea, Indonesia, Iran, Kazakhstan, Kenya, Malawi, Malaysia, Mali, Maldives, Niger, Nigeria, North Korea, Pakistan, Rwanda, San Marino, Saint Lucia, Senegal, Sierra Leone, Solomon Islands, Swaziland, Tajikistan, Togo, Uganda, Zimbabwe
Now, the point of posting this list is that all of the democracies are in the former category and all of the dictatorships, backwards countries, tin pot leaders and lack of human rights countries are in the latter list. Which list do you think the Bahamas, as an international finance centre and tourism centre belongs on?
People need to understand. This is not a reglious/morality issue at all. This is about the rights of human beings versus their governments. This is about what the government can and cannot tell you to do. This is about whether or not the government can tell you who to date, why, what you can do with that person, and what you can or can't do in the privacy of your own home. It is about RIGHTS, period, not just Gay Rights.
You don't have to be gay or support gays to understand that. This is about freedom versus government control. Get the government out of all bedrooms: yours, mine, gay people... everyone's bedroom. A government should not have the right to tell people what they can and cannot do in their private, personal lives. If it isn't causing harm to anyone else, then government doesn't need to be part of that equation. That is the difference.

Posted By: Erasmus Folly On: 4/10/2010

Title: Judgment

@To God be the Glory
I don't share your beliefs. In this country, I am not obligated to either. We have something called 'freedom' here. You might have heard of it. Freedom allows for people to actually think for themselves and not suffer from brain washing. I have nothing against your beliefs, I mean that. I simply take issue that many Bahamian Christians don't apply their belief where it matters most - their own personal lives. Instead they use their beliefs to simply judge others and feel better about themselves. That is very common here. The point isn't, do we agree. We won't. The point is, given that we disagree, can't you let go. Can't you move on and mind your own business? Can't you let people live their lives without telling them which films they can or can't see, who they can date etc etc. Why so preoccupied with other people? Your salvation is between you and your maker, nothing else matters, so what is the big deal? Move on, get over it already. 2 men dating is no threat to anyone here. 2 men or 2 women who love each other should be able to form a 'union'. Not a marriage, but a 'union'. Why are you interfering with people who ask nothing of you, expect nothing of you and probably want nothing more than for you to leave them alone and let them live their lives. Why so obsessed with 'judging' others? It really doesn't come across as Jesus like at all. That is the point.

Posted By: To God be The Glory On: 4/9/2010

Title: Case Closed

Said enough I think. Unless, of course, The Lord inspires me to go further, then yall will hear some more. Good night.

Posted By: To God be the Glory! On: 4/9/2010

Title: Smile

I am reminded of a beautiful song by Sandi Patti:
When others see with earthly eyes
Just what they want to see
You will see the things that never die
You will know and recognize
By simple child-like faith
The priceless truth that
Others will deny.
When others say I'm just a man
Who likes to dream His dreams
When others call a miracle a myth
You'll listen for eternity
In moments as they pass
And see with spirit eyes
What others miss.
Upon this rock I'll build My kingdom
And on this rock forever and ever it shall stand
And all the powers of Hell itself
Shall never more prevail against it
For Satan's thrones are built on sinking sand
Upon this rock I'll build My kingdom
And on this rock forever and ever it shall stand
Upon this rock of revelation
I'll build a strong and mighty nation
Upon this rock.
If in a simple carpenter
You see the Son of God
If you would chose to lose
When you could win
If you would give your life away
For nothing in return
Then you are where
My kingdom will begin.
Prayer to God that your spiritual eyes be opened. Well, have a good night all. Common sense you need to get some rest! We all do, don't we?

Posted By: I fa common sense On: 4/9/2010

Title: Wen will dey eva learn

@ Folly, I think you fightin a losin battle wit dese christians. Dey can't grasp wat you tryin to say, dat your all an all doesn't start an end wit dey bible.

Posted By: To God be The Glory On: 4/9/2010

Title: Sovereign God

Sovereign God, Creator of all including mankind, Alpha and Omega, Beginning and the End, the First and the last. No matter what system of government exists, God was, is and always will be Sovereign. And you just can't do anything about it as a mere mortal man. Except believe, of course. However, on the matter of loving God but not liking Christians:
God's word says: "If any man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar; for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen? And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also." 1 John 4:20-21 For that reason we love even our enemies. Something is not right, do not speak evil of things pertaining to God, God is real. So much villifying and evil surmisings concerning complete strangers is not too good a precedent to set. It's not human rights where there is a problem, but rather the wrongs that are done that are trying to squeeze under that name, say for example, two men trying to get married. So you call that right?

Posted By: Erasmus Folly On: 4/9/2010

Title:

@Bahamian Christian
That's all well and good, but we aren't a theocracy and I don't share your views on the 'end of the world'. Most of the people doing most of the foolery on this island are overly zealous Christians on Sunday and do horsea%^& Monday to Saturday. So, please, spare me your 'high and mighty' stuff. This is about human rights. Any Christian who tells me they don't respect human rights clearly hasn't understood the real meaning of Jesus and is exactly the kind of Christian that Gandhi warned of.
I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. They are so unlike your Christ.
Gandhi

Posted By: Bahamian Christian On: 4/9/2010

Title: The Word of God Says

A sign of the last days is that men would call good evil, and evil good;
Lovers of pleasure more than lovers of God.
"Proud" which is the opposite of humble.
Even a child knows his doings whether it is right or wrong.
All the nations that forget
God will be turned into hell.
To find out what "wisdom" and "understanding" is, read Job 28:28
God still heals the sick, cast out devils, raises the dead even today.
God will not forsake any who put their trust in Him.
Anyone can receive from God but you must believe.
The truth in the midst of error is light in the midst of darkness, and salt of the earth.

Posted By: I fa common sense On: 4/8/2010

Title: Rights based society...fun based society

I agree with Folly, but give me my rights first! Then he can have his! Oh the joy of pure animal lust and debauchery!

Posted By: Erasmus Folly On: 4/8/2010

Title: Think!

@To God be the Glory
Those are the wrong questions. No one is saying that you don't uphold your beliefs. Live the Christian life you want to live, no problem. Just stop thinking that in order to live that life you have to impose on everyone else around you. That is the point of rights - you live your life according to your code, I live my life according to my code. I doubt, you would ever 'interfere' with gay people, even once they have their rights. I doubt they will interfere with you. They won't come to your church and you won't go to their night clubs. It is very simple. So what is the big deal? Why can't you be secure in your faith without imposing it on all those around you? Why drag the Bahamas towards theocracy and all the ignorance and irrationality that that implies? Why? You want your kids to be able to think or to be sheep? You want them to know math, science, philosophy, critical thinking, reasoning and all the 21st century skills that are essential to our country's success or do you want them to be like Taliban idiots, whose sole skill is saying prayers to Allah and reciting the Koran. They are unemployable and have no future. What do you want Bahamas? A rights based society puts us into the club of 'enlightened' democracies. A theocracy puts us in the club of the thug dictatorships of Africa and the Islamic states. No one is taking your Christianity from you. Stop being so naive. You are free to worship as you will. No one will deny you that right.

Posted By: stevie b. On: 4/8/2010

Title: Taneka's rebuttal

Taneka missed the point on Lyall Bethel's answer to her original article...she totally missed it! Oh by the way, I'm coming out of the closet publicly to say..I'm Heterosexuall, yes..I'm straight! My coming out sounds just as rediculous as a Gay person coming out....my point is WHO CARES!

Posted By: I fa common sense On: 4/8/2010

Title: I agree with Folly, rights based society here we come!

@Folly, you gat me convinced dat you ain no Bahamian! Cause, you always talkin dis victim business. Da strange ting wit people like you is, da woman cud giv way all her nookie...no problem, but god forbid she make a dolla. I want to empowa dese women ta be lejitimit busness people. In all my days a byin nookie in da bahamas, I neva met a victim, I felt mor like a victim. But boy I was a happy victim.

Posted By: To God be The Glory On: 4/8/2010

Title: For Generations to Come

Perhaps in time to come, some may read these posts if they still exist or perhaps they will all be deleted after a period of time. Amidst all the voices, views, thoughts arguments and ideals expressed, one thing will stand out. It will be the battle that is raging to influence the way Bahamians view the world. There is an array of tactics being used and repetition is making it even more pronounced. We must ask ourselves some serious questions:
What are we into?
1. Belief or unbelief (In God)
2. Truth or lies (Truth being the Word of God, lies being the words of the devil)
3. Life or death (Life following Jesus Christ, death following sin)
4. Straight or crooked
5. Safety or in danger
etc.
6.

Posted By: Erasmus Folly On: 4/7/2010

Title:

@Common Non-sense
Your list is not exclusive to 'consenting' adults. Please stop mixing the issue. It is not the same thing. You are not in agreement with me, because I am not in agreement with you. Your list of 'rights' is not properly 'rights', because they involve a VICTIM. i am happy to debate each one of those issues with you separately, but you can't just lump them all in together like that. It doesn't work, because each issue is different. The issue with homosexuality is that there is no issue, it is clearly 2 consenting adults and the rest of the world has nothing to do with it. There is no 'business' transaction either. The state has always reserved the right to control business transactions - that is a different matter entirely. Please stop 'muddying' the waters. I am happy to debate each of those points separately, but not if lumped together. Pick the one you want to debate first.

Posted By: I fa common sense On: 4/7/2010

Title: I agree with Folly

We talking serious issues here man! We tryin ta get this rights based society concept accepted by Bahamians. We only differ on positioning, he wants civil union first. I want civil union for gays after we legalize prostitution, all forms of adult entertainment, polygamy, gambling, nude beaches and incest between consenting adults. Please support us in our cause. I am seeking my rights as an adult, to be free to enjoy my "heathenistic" pleasures, without any restriction by purely moral laws.

Posted By: Erasmus Folly On: 4/7/2010

Title: @Just Natural

No one is advocating for bestiality or any of the 'ridiculous' things you just mentioned, so stop making a non-sense argument here. One issue, human rights. Nothing else. Focus and stop pretending to be smart by bringing up the idiotic. Or do you enjoy playing the morons? Debate that issue for real or you have no argument and accept defeat. Reason folks, not madness or religion or nonsense.

Posted By: Just Natural On: 4/7/2010

Title: Dont legalize the Ridiculous

U see how ridiculous legalizing the wrong things can be!

Posted By: I see and wan Marry 1 dead person On: 4/7/2010

Title: Joke: Legalize Marrying Dead People

Legalize marrying dead people, or NecroPhilia. I wan marry my dead girlfriend, LOL

Posted By: Smokkerr On: 4/7/2010

Title: Joke: Healing of the Nations Plant

I wan Marry the greenja! Its the Healing of the Nations and it Heals ma heart betta than a Human! LOL

Posted By: Deer Leg Man On: 4/7/2010

Title: Joke: Luve Dem Deer

I wan Marry Bambi the deer. Legalize bestiality. I luv dem Hind Legs! Get it! LOL

Posted By: Cuzin On: 4/7/2010

Title: Joke: Luv ma female cuzin

Make incest leagal not homosexual civil unions. I wan marry ma cousin! LOL

Posted By: Just Natural On: 4/7/2010

Title: Why are so many girls lesbian or bisexual?

There you have it some evidence showing the obvious that there are more hterosexuals than homosexuals/lesbians, well so far. Admittingly doesnt say much about bisexuals which i think is dishonest. It should be U either straight or your gay.
I know Erasamus has some comments/responses 4 dis well bring it on.
Published on Psychology Today (http://www.psychologytoday.com)
Why are so many girls lesbian or bisexual?
By Leonard Sax, MD, PhD
Created Apr 3 2010 - 7:29pm
You've probably heard about Constance McMillen by now. She's the openly-gay high school senior who wanted to take her girlfriend to the high school prom at Itawamba High School in northern Mississippi. The principal told the girls that all prom couples have to be boy-girl. Ms. McMillen called the ACLU, which threatened the school with legal action. In response, the school board canceled the prom. The ACLU then asked U.S. District Court Judge Glen Davidson to intervene and reinstate the prom. The judge ruled that although the school had violated Ms. McMillen's civil rights, he wouldn't force them to hold a prom.
On Friday, April 2, Ms. McMillen attended an alternative prom at the Fulton County Country Club. According to the Associated Press, her girlfriend's parents wouldn't allow the 16-year-old girlfriend to go, so McMillen escorted another young woman instead. To make the story even worse, it turns out that the alternative prom at the Fulton County Country Club was a fake, with only seven kids attending, according to McMillen. The real prom, i.e. the prom which most of the seniors attended, was held at a still-undisclosed location, and McMillen wasn't invited.
The story continues to attract national attention because it's just so darn quaint. Imagine: there are still people who get upset when they see girls kissing other girls! Who knew?
Psychologist John Buss estimates that for most of human history, perhaps 2% of women have been lesbian or bisexual (see note 1, below). Not any more. Recent surveys of teenage girls and young women find that roughly 15% of young females today self-identify as lesbian or bisexual, compared with about 5% of young males who identify as gay or bisexual (see note 2, below).
As a physician and a psychologist, what I found missing in the noise surrounding the Constance McMillen story was any serious discussion of why a growing number of girls self-identify as lesbian or bisexual. Not that there's anything wrong with that, as Seinfeld might say.
But why are young women today at least three times more likely than their brothers to identify as bisexual or homosexual? "I kissed a girl and I liked it," Katy Perry told us in her #1 hit single. Megan Fox, Lindsay Lohan, Lady Gaga, Anna Paquin, Angelina Jolie, Drew Barrymore - they all want us to know that they are bisexual.
There is no comparable crowd of young male celebrities rushing to assure us that they go both ways. Imagine a young man singing "I kissed a boy and I liked it." Would that song reach #1 on the charts? Why not?
Why is it OK for girls to be bisexual or homosexual, but not boys?
Over the past seven years, I've posed this question to hundreds of teenagers and young adults across the United States. The most common answer I get isn't really an answer. "Girls kiss other girls at parties because guys like it," one teenage girl told me. "It makes the guys hoot and holler, so the girls do it again. They're just doing it for attention. It's not for real."
I point out, as gently as I can, that that response doesn't answer my question. Pretending to be lesbian or bisexual doesn't explain why a growing proportion of young women are lesbian or bisexual.
Or does it?
Female sexuality is different from male sexuality. If a straight boy kissed another boy, perhaps to amuse some girls who might be watching, he would be unlikely to
undergo a change in sexual orientation as a result. But, as Professor Roy
Baumeister at Florida State University and others have shown, sexual attraction in many women seems to be more malleable (see note 3 below). If a teenage girl kisses another teenage girl, for whatever reason, and she finds that she likes it - then things can happen, and things can change. If a young woman finds her soulmate, and her soulmate happens to be female, then she may begin to experience feelings she's never felt before.
Especially if all the guys she knows are losers.
Which brings me to the second point I've encountered in my interviews with young people. Twenty years ago, when I opened my practice in a suburb of Washington DC, it was rare to find 14-year-old boys who were looking at pornography every day. Today it's common, in fact it's becoming the norm. When I meet with a group of 14-year-old boys and I ask them, "how many of you guys subscribe to a porn site?", all hands go up. I don't believe them. But today, no boy wants to admit that he's the weirdo who doesn't look at online porn.
Twenty years ago, hardcore pornography was tucked away in adult bookstores. Today any 14-year-old can access such photos online in seconds. Role models for young men, from pop singer John Mayer to the 2009 World Series MVP Hideki Matsui, talk openly about their collections of porn (see note 4, below).
Is there any connection between these two trends - between the rise in the number of young women who self-identify as lesbian or bisexual, and the increasing normalization and acceptance of pornography in the lives of young men? Maybe there is.
A young woman told me how her boyfriend several years ago suggested that she shave her pubic hair, so that she might more closely resemble the porn stars who were this young man's most consistent source of sexual arousal. She now identifies herself as bisexual. "It was just such a welcome change, to snuggle under a blanket on the couch with my girlfriend, watch a movie, and talk about God and death and growing old, to be intimate emotionally and spiritually as well as physically. I don't know a guy who could even comprehend the conversations we have."
I wish Constance McMillen and her girlfriend all the best. But I have to wonder: Are there so many girl-girl couples out there because that's truly who they are - or because the guys are such losers?
Leonard Sax MD PhD is a physician, psychologist, and author of Girls on the Edge: the four factors driving the new crisis for girls, which will be published next month by Basic Books.
Note 1: How common has bisexual and lesbian sexual orientation been among women, historically?: In the third edition of his textbook Evolutionary Psychology: the new science of the mind, Professor David Buss (University of Texas / Austin) asserts that "1 to 2 percent of women" are lesbian or bisexual ("What about lesbian sexual orientation?" Box 4.1, p. 137 in the Pearson International Edition, 2009).
He implies that this figure has been generally valid over time, a finding which he acknowledges poses an as-yet-unsolved mystery for evolutionary psychology.
Popular accounts of homosexual behavior often suggest that these behaviors make evolutionary sense because the people practicing these behaviors make better aunts and uncles than heterosexuals do, a theory first advanced by E.O. Wilson back in the 1970's.
However, studies published in the past twenty years have provided little support for this hypothesis, and have often directly refuted it, particularly for male homosexuals: it turns out that gay men are actually more likely to be estranged from nieces and nephews, which contradicts the predictions of Wilson's kin altruism theory: see for example Bobrow & Bailey 2001, also Rahman & Hull 2005.
(Nobody seems to have told the New York Times about this, as they repeated E. O. Wilson's 1970's hypothesis about homosexual men being better uncles, with breathless credulity, and no substantive mention of the studies refuting this theory, in a lengthy March 29 2010 feature in the NYT Magazine.)
It's very difficult to estimate accurately the "true" proportion of lesbian or bisexual women 50 years ago or 200 years ago. In many jurisdictions 50 years ago, lesbian behavior would have been a criminal offense. In that era and in those jurisdictions, asking a woman whether she was a lesbian was equivalent to asking her whether she had committed a crime. Even when assured of confidentiality, women might reasonably under-report the true incidence of bisexual or lesbian orientation.
However, it's hard to deny that lesbian and bisexual behavior has become much more visible in our time compared with one or two generations ago -- and also that lesbian behavior is much more visible today in mainstream North American culture than is homosexual behavior among men.
Note 2: How common is bisexual and homosexual orientation, today? Researchers at Cornell University, examining data collected from a representative sampling of young Americans which included more than 20,000 individuals in 80 communities across the United States, found that 85.1% of the young women identified as heterosexual; 0.5% reported no sexual identity; and the remaining 14.4% were sexual but not strictly heterosexual, i.e. either lesbian or bisexual.
Among young men, 94.0% identified themselves as heterosexual; 0.4% of the men reported no sexual identity; and the remaining 5.6% identified as gay or bisexual.
See Ritch Savin-Williams and Geoffrey L. Ream, "Prevalence and stability of sexual orientation components during adolescence and young adulthood," Archives of Sexual Behavior, volume 36, pp. 385 - 394, 2007.
The proportions in Europe might be higher. For example, in Norway, more than 20% of girls and young women identified as lesbian or bisexual: see L. Wichstrøm and K. Hegna, "Sexual orientation and suicide attempt: A longitudinal study of the general Norwegian adolescent population," Journal of Abnormal Psychology, volume 112, pp. 144-151, 2003. In a study from New Zealand, 16.4% of young women identified as lesbian or bisexual, compared with 5.6% of men who identified as gay or bisexual: see N. Dickson and colleagues, "Same-sex attraction in a birth cohort: prevalence and persistence in early adulthood", Social Science and Medicine, volume 56, pp. 1607 - 1615, 2003.
Note 3: Maybe a straight woman is just a woman who hasn't yet met - the right woman? Professor Roy Baumeister's most relevant article about erotic plasticity is "Gender differences in erotic plasticity: the female sex drive as socially flexible and responsive," Psychological Bulletin, volume 126, pp. 347 - 374, 2000. Professor Lisa Diamond has made a compelling case that many women don't discover their "true" sexual identity until their 20's, 30's or even 40's.
A woman may reach her 40's, believe that she is a straight woman, and then find herself falling in love with her soulmate - who happens to be a woman. Here are three of Professor Diamond's most relevant articles:
"Female bisexuality from adolescence to adulthood: results from a 10-year longitudinal study," Developmental Psychology, volume 44, pp. 5 - 14, 2008.
"The evolution of plasticity in female-female desire," Journal of Psychology and Human Sexuality, volume 18, pp. 245 - 274, 2006.
"What does sexual orientation orient? A biobehavioral model distinguishing romantic love and sexual desire," Psychological Review, volume 110, pp. 173 - 192, 2003.
Note 4: John Mayer said what? John Mayer's current preference for pornography over sex with real women wasn't well-known until his interview with Rolling Stone (February 4 2010) and his March 2010 interview with Playboy magazine, in which he also explained why he now prefers porn over sex with actual women: because masturbation allows him to be in complete control. He said: "As soon as I lose that control, once I have to deal with someone else's desires, I cut and run . . . I'm more comfortable in my imagination than I am in actual human discovery."
Source URL: http://www.psychologytoday.com/node/40583

There is no comparable crowd of young male celebrities rushing to assure us that they go both ways. Imagine a young man singing "I kissed a boy and I liked it." Would that song reach #1 on the charts? Why not?
Why is it OK for girls to be bisexual or homosexual, but not boys?
Over the past seven years, I've posed this question to hundreds of teenagers and young adults across the United States. The most common answer I get isn't really an answer. "Girls kiss other girls at parties because guys like it," one teenage girl told me. "It makes the guys hoot and holler, so the girls do it again. They're just doing it for attention. It's not for real."
I point out, as gently as I can, that that response doesn't answer my question. Pretending to be lesbian or bisexual doesn't explain why a growing proportion of young women are lesbian or bisexual.
Or does it?
Female sexuality is different from male sexuality. If a straight boy kissed another boy, perhaps to amuse some girls who might be watching, he would be unlikely to
undergo a change in sexual orientation as a result. But, as Professor Roy
Baumeister at Florida State University and others have shown, sexual attraction in many women seems to be more malleable (see note 3 below). If a teenage girl kisses another teenage girl, for whatever reason, and she finds that she likes it - then things can happen, and things can change. If a young woman finds her soulmate, and her soulmate happens to be female, then she may begin to experience feelings she's never felt before.
Especially if all the guys she knows are losers.
Which brings me to the second point I've encountered in my interviews with young people. Twenty years ago, when I opened my practice in a suburb of Washington DC, it was rare to find 14-year-old boys who were looking at pornography every day. Today it's common, in fact it's becoming the norm. When I meet with a group of 14-year-old boys and I ask them, "how many of you guys subscribe to a porn site?", all hands go up. I don't believe them. But today, no boy wants to admit that he's the weirdo who doesn't look at online porn.
Twenty years ago, hardcore pornography was tucked away in adult bookstores. Today any 14-year-old can access such photos online in seconds. Role models for young men, from pop singer John Mayer to the 2009 World Series MVP Hideki Matsui, talk openly about their collections of porn (see note 4, below).
Is there any connection between these two trends - between the rise in the number of young women who self-identify as lesbian or bisexual, and the increasing normalization and acceptance of pornography in the lives of young men? Maybe there is.
A young woman told me how her boyfriend several years ago suggested that she shave her pubic hair, so that she might more closely resemble the porn stars who were this young man's most consistent source of sexual arousal. She now identifies herself as bisexual. "It was just such a welcome change, to snuggle under a blanket on the couch with my girlfriend, watch a movie, and talk about God and death and growing old, to be intimate emotionally and spiritually as well as physically. I don't know a guy who could even comprehend the conversations we have."
I wish Constance McMillen and her girlfriend all the best. But I have to wonder: Are there so many girl-girl couples out there because that's truly who they are - or because the guys are such losers?
Leonard Sax MD PhD is a physician, psychologist, and author of Girls on the Edge: the four factors driving the new crisis for girls, which will be published next month by Basic Books.
Note 1: How common has bisexual and lesbian sexual orientation been among women, historically?: In the third edition of his textbook Evolutionary Psychology: the new science of the mind, Professor David Buss (University of Texas / Austin) asserts that "1 to 2 percent of women" are lesbian or bisexual ("What about lesbian sexual orientation?" Box 4.1, p. 137 in the Pearson International Edition, 2009).
He implies that this figure has been generally valid over time, a finding which he acknowledges poses an as-yet-unsolved mystery for evolutionary psychology.
Popular accounts of homosexual behavior often suggest that these behaviors make evolutionary sense because the people practicing these behaviors make better aunts and uncles than heterosexuals do, a theory first advanced by E.O. Wilson back in the 1970's.
However, studies published in the past twenty years have provided little support for this hypothesis, and have often directly refuted it, particularly for male homosexuals: it turns out that gay men are actually more likely to be estranged from nieces and nephews, which contradicts the predictions of Wilson's kin altruism theory: see for example Bobrow & Bailey 2001, also Rahman & Hull 2005.
(Nobody seems to have told the New York Times about this, as they repeated E. O. Wilson's 1970's hypothesis about homosexual men being better uncles, with breathless credulity, and no substantive mention of the studies refuting this theory, in a lengthy March 29 2010 feature in the NYT Magazine.)
It's very difficult to estimate accurately the "true" proportion of lesbian or bisexual women 50 years ago or 200 years ago. In many jurisdictions 50 years ago, lesbian behavior would have been a criminal offense. In that era and in those jurisdictions, asking a woman whether she was a lesbian was equivalent to asking her whether she had committed a crime. Even when assured of confidentiality, women might reasonably under-report the true incidence of bisexual or lesbian orientation.
However, it's hard to deny that lesbian and bisexual behavior has become much more visible in our time compared with one or two generations ago -- and also that lesbian behavior is much more visible today in mainstream North American culture than is homosexual behavior among men.
Note 2: How common is bisexual and homosexual orientation, today? Researchers at Cornell University, examining data collected from a representative sampling of young Americans which included more than 20,000 individuals in 80 communities across the United States, found that 85.1% of the young women identified as heterosexual; 0.5% reported no sexual identity; and the remaining 14.4% were sexual but not strictly heterosexual, i.e. either lesbian or bisexual.
Among young men, 94.0% identified themselves as heterosexual; 0.4% of the men reported no sexual identity; and the remaining 5.6% identified as gay or bisexual.
See Ritch Savin-Williams and Geoffrey L. Ream, "Prevalence and stability of sexual orientation components during adolescence and young adulthood," Archives of Sexual Behavior, volume 36, pp. 385 - 394, 2007.
The proportions in Europe might be higher. For example, in Norway, more than 20% of girls and young women identified as lesbian or bisexual: see L. Wichstrøm and K. Hegna, "Sexual orientation and suicide attempt: A longitudinal study of the general Norwegian adolescent population," Journal of Abnormal Psychology, volume 112, pp. 144-151, 2003. In a study from New Zealand, 16.4% of young women identified as lesbian or bisexual, compared with 5.6% of men who identified as gay or bisexual: see N. Dickson and colleagues, "Same-sex attraction in a birth cohort: prevalence and persistence in early adulthood", Social Science and Medicine, volume 56, pp. 1607 - 1615, 2003.
Note 3: Maybe a straight woman is just a woman who hasn't yet met - the right woman? Professor Roy Baumeister's most relevant article about erotic plasticity is "Gender differences in erotic plasticity: the female sex drive as socially flexible and responsive," Psychological Bulletin, volume 126, pp. 347 - 374, 2000. Professor Lisa Diamond has made a compelling case that many women don't discover their "true" sexual identity until their 20's, 30's or even 40's.
A woman may reach her 40's, believe that she is a straight woman, and then find herself falling in love with her soulmate - who happens to be a woman. Here are three of Professor Diamond's most relevant articles:
"Female bisexuality from adolescence to adulthood: results from a 10-year longitudinal study," Developmental Psychology, volume 44, pp. 5 - 14, 2008.
"The evolution of plasticity in female-female desire," Journal of Psychology and Human Sexuality, volume 18, pp. 245 - 274, 2006.
"What does sexual orientation orient? A biobehavioral model distinguishing romantic love and sexual desire," Psychological Review, volume 110, pp. 173 - 192, 2003.
Note 4: John Mayer said what? John Mayer's current preference for pornography over sex with real women wasn't well-known until his interview with Rolling Stone (February 4 2010) and his March 2010 interview with Playboy magazine, in which he also explained why he now prefers porn over sex with actual women: because masturbation allows him to be in complete control. He said: "As soon as I lose that control, once I have to deal with someone else's desires, I cut and run . . . I'm more comfortable in my imagination than I am in actual human discovery."
Source URL: http://www.psychologytoday.com/node/40583" />

Posted By: I fa common sense On: 4/7/2010

Title: Sane, consenting, adult + no moral laws or judgments = perversion

@Folly, I hope so! I am sold on your rights based society with no moral laws or judgments. I'm making my list of things I'd like to do if we can really sell this idea. Let me be the first to say, yes... I am a pervert.

Posted By: Erasmus Folly On: 4/7/2010

Title: @Common Non-sense

The freethinking of one age is the common sense of the next.
Matthew Arnold, English critic & poet (1822 - 1888)
Just reflect on this... think it through carefully. Meditate.

Posted By: I fa common sense On: 4/7/2010

Title: Lobby on, Lobby on, Lobby on

@Folly, this one you might like. Is it natural or normal for a Bahamian student to get A's and B's on the BGCSE? No. It occurs, but it is not a natural, normal thing. How do you reach the point of saying homosexuality occurs in nature all the time! Even if I accept all 1500 animals on the link that was posted, do you know how many species of animals there are, and what percentage 1500 is of that? Just take birds, mammals and reptiles, leave out the others, and see what percentage you come up with. Look at the resulting percentage and you will see that homosexuality occurs, but it is an abnormality of nature, ma brudda. Not normal by a long shot!

Posted By: I fa common sense On: 4/7/2010

Title: What a dumb point

@Folly, you are making a lousy point! Sex within the family occurs more in nature than homosexuality. Therefore, this is more natural and occurs in nature more times. Therefore, if this is your attempt to justify civil unions, then I think incest would be ahead of homosexuality in things that need to be legitimized.

Posted By: erasmus folly On: 4/7/2010

Title: @To God be the Glory

@To God be the Glory
The national anthem is not the constitution, so let me disspell you of these romantic notions. We are a palriamentary democracy with rights, as is Britain. We are not a theocracy, no matter the song lyrics.

Posted By: Erasmus Folly On: 4/7/2010

Title: @Common Nonsense

The freethinking of one age is the common sense of the next.
Matthew Arnold, English critic & poet (1822 - 1888)

Posted By: Erasmus Folly On: 4/7/2010

Title: @Common Non-sense

@I fa common sense
You love to run with the 'worst' interpretation, as does every other idiot who opposes gay rights. No one is talking about bestiality or sex with minors - get over it already! There is enough of that here without the gays having their rights. Open your mind common non-sense. Think and stop pushing to the lowest common denominator all the time. The point isn't to show what 'animals' do. The point is to show that homosexuality exists in the animal kingdom as well as in man. It always has and it always will - that makes it NATURAL! As in it occurs all the time in NATURE! Don't be pedantic and trite!

Posted By: I fa common sense On: 4/7/2010

Title: So what?

@ Folly, you really want us live like wild animals? AND THEN legitimize the activity? Oh the things wild animals do!Some birds exhibit strong homosexual partnerships, AND dwarf chimpanzees have family orgies. Using these animals as measuring sticks, I would then say yes to civil unions, AND yes to family orgies, which apparently also includes sex with minors. The whole family!
WOW, I hope we don't base our decisions on these kinds of findings!

Posted By: To God be the Glory On: 4/6/2010

Title: Righteousness

Praise the Lord for The British National Anthem which recognizes the Supremacy of God, the Reality of God, the need for God in granting mercy and protection to His Servant Her Majesty the Queen. Let's listen to these words:
"God save our gracious Queen,
Long live our noble Queen,
God save the Queen!
Send her victorious,
Happy and Glorious,
Long to reign over us;
God save the Queen!

O Lord our God arise,
Scatter her enemies
And make them fall;
Confound their politics,
Frustrate their knavish tricks,
On Thee our hopes we fix,
Oh, save us all!
Thy choicest gifts in store
On her be pleased to pour;
Long may she reign;
May she defend our laws,
And ever give us cause
To sing with heart and voice
God save the Queen!
Not in this land alone,
But be God's mercies known,
From shore to shore!
Lord make the nations see,
That men should brothers be,
And form one family,
The wide world over
From every latent foe,
From the assassins blow,
God save the Queen!
O'er her thine arm extend,
For Britain's sake defend,
Our mother, prince, and friend,
God save the Queen"
Yes God is Sovereign and Supreme, over every nation in heaven and earth including the Bahamas, and will always be so.

Long live our noble Queen,
God save the Queen!
Send her victorious,
Happy and Glorious,
Long to reign over us;
God save the Queen!

O Lord our God arise,
Scatter her enemies
And make them fall;
Confound their politics,
Frustrate their knavish tricks,
On Thee our hopes we fix,
Oh, save us all!
Thy choicest gifts in store
On her be pleased to pour;
Long may she reign;
May she defend our laws,
And ever give us cause
To sing with heart and voice
God save the Queen!
Not in this land alone,
But be God's mercies known,
From shore to shore!
Lord make the nations see,
That men should brothers be,
And form one family,
The wide world over
From every latent foe,
From the assassins blow,
God save the Queen!
O'er her thine arm extend,
For Britain's sake defend,
Our mother, prince, and friend,
God save the Queen"
Yes God is Sovereign and Supreme, over every nation in heaven and earth including the Bahamas, and will always be so. " />

Posted By: Erasmus Folly On: 4/6/2010

Title: Righteousness vs Self-righteousness

Righteousness might help, but ethical behaviour would be better. Usually, righteousness really just means self-righteousness, which is very different. I prefer rights to righteousness. God is not the sovereign law of the Bahamas. Now, before you 'flip out', let me explain that. If you want to maintain he is sovereign of the universe, alpha and omega etc, no qualms there. However, legally, God is not sovereign of the Bahamas - the Queen of England still is technically. The Bahamas, however, is a parliamentary democracy, not a theocracy. Theocracy comes from the ancient Greek root words 'theo', meaning God, and 'kratos', meaning 'rule' or 'power'.A theocracy exists when the people appoint the laws of their 'God' as the highest power of the land. Democracy comes from the ancient Greek root words 'demos', meaning 'people', and 'kratos', meaning 'rule' or 'power'. A democracy exists when the people appoint the laws of their 'people' as the highest power of the land. We are a democracy. More specifically, we are a parliamentary democracy, which goes one step further by institutionalizing legal principles and procedures for law changing as 'sacred' before simply subjecting them to the 'whim' of the people via the vote. Parliamentary democracies proclaim a set of rights that their citizens enjoy. Mob rule alone cannot over turn those rights. We should be seeking to perfect our rights based democracy, not slip down the very slippery slope of theocracy and back into the Dark Ages. The only theocracies that still exist in the world are Saudi Arabia, Iran and Vatican City - none of them is doing very well these days.

Posted By: Erasmus Folly On: 4/6/2010

Title: NYTimes article...

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/04/magazine/04animals-t.html?src=me&ref=homepage
Read and learn something Bahamas... open your eyes and your mind!

Posted By: 3 RD World Bahamian Citizen On: 4/6/2010

Title: Not Liking My 3 RD World Country the Bahamas

The Joys of the Bahamian 3 rd World country.
1. Fake/False democracy
2. Widespread Corruption
3. The Good Old Boy Club (U have to be a Doctor, Lawyer, Politician, Busnessman to Join)
4. International Banks making a Huge profit off of its customers in interest rates but give its customers low interst rates every 3 months instead of every month. How Lame!
5. Bahamian Natural Habitats are being destryoed. Bahamians littering all over the place. Harold Road Dump is the 9 TH Wonder of the World and who Cares! No one!
6. We got all kind of SHanty Towns in the Bahamas and we cant put a limit on how many immigrants come here. So Nassau and the Bahamas look like 1 big Ghetto!
7. All our children look like dey going dumb being Miseducated by the Cable TV and Internet rather than School work. Blame the Parents not the system 4 dat!
8. And to top it all off the Education system is piling more work on students than 10 or 20 years ago. I never seen my little son have so many projects to do. Come on cut the projects in half. Stressing the kids out before going out into the real world. Learning should be fun for primary school kids only high school its suppose d to be serious.
9. We got too many Ancient old leaders with no new, creative ideas. Problem is dey corrupt and greedy dey self
10. We got Uncreative, Hypocritical religious leaders who say Bahamians should not Gamble. But why does the tourists gamble? What s good 4 one aitn good for the other? Christian council is unfair. there Postion should be like the Muslims No Gambling Period not in nassau or Paradise Island lets see how our economy would go. Probably down south.

Posted By: Rasta Agricultureer On: 4/6/2010

Title: Go back to the Fruits and Vegetables, the Green Leaf and ting!

Why dont we all return to the simple life and live like our ancestors the cave man or the African Zulu tribes.
All we have to do is sell our vehicles by trading them in to the US in exchange for more cattle, seed of fruits and vegetables, and cow manure and put out of business the fast food companies and eat naturallly and sell our homes and go back to living in mud brick and grass leave houses. Plow the land with the seeds and manure fertilizer to make the bahamas a Agricultural Mecca.
And grow and sell some greenja. It will bring in all kinds of tourists like who go to Amsterdam!

Posted By: Problem solver On: 4/6/2010

Title: Bahamian Problems

I agree we een gat time 4 dis civil union nonsense. We are not making artificail reefs or artificaial mangroves for the ones being destroyed. We are not giving enough time for the conch or grouper population to recuperate from our overfishing. I think because of the whoe fish fry thing. Come on Ya cant eat grouper and conch everyday.
We have a huge garbage waste disposal problem. Man look at Harold dump dats just plain lousiness by both political parties of not doin a dern thing about it but talking fool and playing politics...um politricks with us.
No transparencey in the voting process. Seems like every election is going to be a recount. Only have the constuencey on the vote and the person who representing your constuiency and the blank box where to mark your X and no voters number to match up and see who you vote for. to fix the problem have the registar check 6 months in advance of who all live in what constiuency.
With Immigration give status to people who were illegal but been here for over 5-10 years with a green card or blue card to live, work, pay national insurance but ya cant vote. give a green card to the foreign husband of a bahamain wife and make bahamian citizen out of their childrenn. Just make the process reasonable not 5-10 years long wait.
Just like the American green card , have a bahamian green card or Blue card. And to be Balanced since we is a small nation have limits as to who get a green card and how much people especially in terms of whether or not they have a criminal record or on a stop or most wanted list in the US or abroad. Whats so hard about that.
Is our Political parties so dumb that they cant be efficient and balanced to be modernized in the new Millennium? Or they just so dern selfish they dont care about Us?

Posted By: I fa common sense On: 4/6/2010

Title: Da joys of a tird worl backwata

@Folly, here you go again! We ga come up to 21st centry standad wen da res a da developed worl come to 21st century standard! We is a tird worl backwata an we ga wait fa all da firs worl cuntry ta allow dis civil union busness firs! We gat udda issues ta deal wit firs! Man, we stil rapin our wife, an we can' keep trafic lites on. We'en gat no time fa dis civil union nonsens.

Posted By: Erasmus Folly On: 4/6/2010

Title: Civil Unions

Marriage between a man and a woman, agreed. Civil unions are another matter entirely... I agree with Obama's position in defense of marriage, but the 'rights' of marriage can be conferred without giving 'marriage' and they would end legal discrimination just as effectively to bring the Bahamas up to 21st century standards.

Posted By: Respectful Civilized Voter On: 4/6/2010

Title: Respectful Politics in Bahamas? Yea Right!

too Bad selfitsh greedy bahamian practice dumb donkey butt politics and not respectful politics just look at ....oops just listen to Bradley roberts and Perry christie.
dey think we bahamians fool.

Posted By: BahamaObamamerican On: 4/6/2010

Title: Read this Bahamians who want to be Americans. Barack Obama: 'marriage is between a man and a woman'

From:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/barackobama/3375059/Barack-Obama-marriage-is-between-a-man-and-a-woman.html
By Catherine Elsworth in Los Angeles
Published: 9:59PM GMT 03 Nov 2008
Barack Obama: 'marriage is between a man and a woman'
Barack Obama, the Democratic presidential candidate, has spelled out his views on gay marriage on the eve of the election.
The White House front-runner said in an interview with MTV he did not support same-sex weddings and believed "marriage is between a man and a woman".
But the Illinois senator reaffirmed his opposition to a proposition on the ballot in California that would change the state constitution to overturn a ruling that recently gave gay couples the right to marry.
"When you start playing around with constitutions just to prohibit somebody who cares about another person, it just seems to me that's not what America is about," the senator said.
"Usually, our constitutions expand liberties, they don't contract them," he added.
The Democratic presidential nominee voiced strong support for civil unions between same-sex couples "that provide legal rights to same-sex couples (so) that they can visit each other in the hospital if they get sick, (so) they can transfer property to each other. If they've got benefits, they can make sure those benefits apply to their partners."
He added: "I think that's the direction we need to go in. I think young people are ahead of the curve on this for the most part. Their attitude, generally, is that we should be respectful of all people, and that's the kind of politics I want to practice."
In the interview, Mr Obama described California's Proposition 8, which residents will vote on on Tuesday, as "unnecessary". Opponents of the measure hope Mr Obama's position will encourage voters in the Democratic state to defeat it.
The senator also opposes the federal Defence of Marriage Act that prevents states from having to recognise same-sex marriages performed in other states and voted against a federal constitutional amendment to define marriage as between a man and a woman.
The question about gay marriage was sent in by an MTV viewer on Saturday and put to the senator during a campaign stop in Henderson, Nevada. His answers on a range of subject were to be broadcast in a programme called "Ask Obama".
MTV News said it also asked Republican presidential contender John McCain to take part in a similar question and answer session but he turned down the offer. The Arizona senator also opposes gay marriage and backs legal rights for same-sex couples but supports the federal Defence of Marriage Act.
The Obama campaign has devoted extensive efforts to energising the youth vote and is hoping a potentially historic turnout among young voters will help propel him to victory, although there has been little evidence of this in early voting.
According to the Pew Research Center, the Illinois senator leads his Republican rival 61-36 among voters aged 18 to 29.
Also in the MTV interview, Senator Obama answered questions on gun violence, civil liberties and ordinances that ban sagging trousers. "Any public official who is worrying about sagging pants needs to spend some time focusing on real problems out there," the senator commented. "Having said that, brothers should pull up their pants."

But the Illinois senator reaffirmed his opposition to a proposition on the ballot in California that would change the state constitution to overturn a ruling that recently gave gay couples the right to marry.
"When you start playing around with constitutions just to prohibit somebody who cares about another person, it just seems to me that's not what America is about," the senator said.
"Usually, our constitutions expand liberties, they don't contract them," he added.
The Democratic presidential nominee voiced strong support for civil unions between same-sex couples "that provide legal rights to same-sex couples (so) that they can visit each other in the hospital if they get sick, (so) they can transfer property to each other. If they've got benefits, they can make sure those benefits apply to their partners."
He added: "I think that's the direction we need to go in. I think young people are ahead of the curve on this for the most part. Their attitude, generally, is that we should be respectful of all people, and that's the kind of politics I want to practice."
In the interview, Mr Obama described California's Proposition 8, which residents will vote on on Tuesday, as "unnecessary". Opponents of the measure hope Mr Obama's position will encourage voters in the Democratic state to defeat it.
The senator also opposes the federal Defence of Marriage Act that prevents states from having to recognise same-sex marriages performed in other states and voted against a federal constitutional amendment to define marriage as between a man and a woman.
The question about gay marriage was sent in by an MTV viewer on Saturday and put to the senator during a campaign stop in Henderson, Nevada. His answers on a range of subject were to be broadcast in a programme called "Ask Obama".
MTV News said it also asked Republican presidential contender John McCain to take part in a similar question and answer session but he turned down the offer. The Arizona senator also opposes gay marriage and backs legal rights for same-sex couples but supports the federal Defence of Marriage Act.
The Obama campaign has devoted extensive efforts to energising the youth vote and is hoping a potentially historic turnout among young voters will help propel him to victory, although there has been little evidence of this in early voting.
According to the Pew Research Center, the Illinois senator leads his Republican rival 61-36 among voters aged 18 to 29.
Also in the MTV interview, Senator Obama answered questions on gun violence, civil liberties and ordinances that ban sagging trousers. "Any public official who is worrying about sagging pants needs to spend some time focusing on real problems out there," the senator commented. "Having said that, brothers should pull up their pants."
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Posted By: To God be the Glory On: 4/5/2010

Title: The Solution

7Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
8For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
Galatians 6:7-8
Saw some fellow this afternoon in the Montague area, it was masses of them, all looking as though they were heading home after a day at the beach. However, they kept looking behind them as a few little girls warned them that some more were coming. One grabbed out his cutlass or large knife and scraped it on the asphalt pavement of the street then shoved it in the front of his pants under his shirt. Don't ask me to identify them, because their faces were a blur to me. As I reached the safety of a nearby building, a most phenomenal rock fight ensued. I know of at least one car that was struck by the rocks thrown. It was a rain of rocks and flashing cutlasses dispersed here and there as the crowds ran in one direction, and then turned and chased their pursuers in another direction. Somebody must have gotten through to the police because not too long after, I heard sirens rushing to the area. In my estimation, the perpetrators probably had long gone, but I could be wrong. Now with all this going on in our society, the police can only do so much. You could probably try to beat some sense in their heads but what they really need is a change of heart. Here is where the Gospel of Jesus Christ provides the solution. I have seen the Gospel in tract form, distributed into the hands of a mob, quiet the whole crowd. 'when we accept the Gospel of Jesus Christ, we will witness its transforming power upon the lives of many. You will hear this testimony: "The things I used to do, I do them no more." I heard one bus driver say to me a few years back, "You see, I got to the point where I appreciate righteousness." That's after he suffered many years as an alcoholic. He surrendered and gave His life to Jesus Christ and had the above-mentioned testimony. Why will the Gospel of Jesus Christ prevail in the Bahamas? There are many persons who were bound to alcohol and drugs, who testify that it was only through faith in God through Jesus Christ, that they have been set free. There are many who were dying of incurable diseases, who received their healings in the name of Jesus Christ. There are marriages which have been restored, there have been disasters avoided, all through faith in Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Many testimonies, many! Why throw it away for a moment of foraging around in the hay? Jesus did not come to take away life. He came to give life and more abundantly. In the right way. What's wrong with that? Satan is the one who came to steal, kill and destroy. When you think of those young men hurling stones at one and sundry, remember Jesus words: Matthew 12:30
"He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad."
This is not the time to be part of the problem. It is time to be a part of the solution. What builds a society is not sin but righteousness.

Posted By: Just another fornicator On: 4/4/2010

Title: Governed by the Bible

Actually, society wouldn't just be less fun, it would look a lot like the dark ages where people would be given the death penalty for relatively minor infractions. I am more for a more reasonable, logical and secular approach (hence our laws that go above and beyond the Ten Commandments). Again, most of us are missing the point and scapegoating a lifestyle between two consenting adults instead of addressing the real issues in our society (crime, poverty, illiteracy).

Posted By: I fa common sense On: 4/3/2010

Title: A word to the wise...

@A Bahamian, you're missing my point. If we were a country governed by The Bible, there would be no casinos, no liquor stores and nightclubs, no radio stations playing the devil music. There would be severe penalties for adulterers and fornicators etc. If we were a country governed based on the bible I wouldn't have as much fun as I presently do! That's all I'm sayin, not looking to start a fight with you, just gave you a word of advice.

Posted By: A Bahamian Christian On: 4/3/2010

Title: The Truth

So you all trying to speak as though God is not Sovereign? How far do you think you will get with that? Try combing your hair with a comb that has no teeth. That is just how effective it is to enter into a debate without the proper tools. In this case, the authority of God’s Word. Jesus in being tempted by satan, in all His replies started by saying “It is written.” He was dealing with “the father of lies” so He showed us how to deal with him: “It is written satan…” Are yall going to let the devil bind you up and not speak God’s word? I’m not subject to the devil’s rules, I happen to know better. Jesus Christ defeated him once and for all when on the second day after His crucifixion he descended into hell and preached to the souls who were held there in captivity.On the the third day He arose victorious as He said He would. And yall letting people tell yall you can’t speak God’s Word because they don’t believe it when it has been proven and can still be proven it is the truth! The following is the truth and happened right here in Nassau, Bahamas: there was a young man in Princess Margaret Hospital whose leg had been broken in a large number of places due to a motorbike accident. He was in intense pain from these injuries. It was well known that he was into Rastafarianism for many years. However, in being in such intense agony, he agreed to listen to God’s word. After hearing that the Creator of the heaven and earth who created mankind from dust was able to fix that dust if anything went wrong with that dust the young man listened to the Word of God concerning healing and agreed to prayer being made on his behalf in the Name of Jesus. At the conclusion of the prayer he was requested to say “Thank You Jesus for healing me.” He did so in front of witnesses. Guess what! Jesus healed him! Want to hear more?

Posted By: I fa common sense On: 4/2/2010

Title: Just a word of advice

@A Bahamian, not to be offensive, but Good Friday means nothing to people who do not accept the Christian religion as a guide. Just a word of advice, I've debated both sides of this issue on numerous occasions, and because we are not a theocracy, the Christian/Bible argument loses every time!

Posted By: A Bahamian On: 4/2/2010

Title: When Since?

Who do you think you are fooling? When since has homosexuality ceased to be a perversion???? Even a child knows that is wrong! How come you don't? It is God who says it is a perversion. Of course He does not make mistakes. It is man who makes mistakes...trying to say homosexuality is normal and trying to get the rest of us to believe that is progress? So you say you are a Bahamian? You had me wondering. God's compassion is He came to set the captive free, to open the prison to them that are bound, to preach the gospel to the poor, and proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord. You are not helping by flattering those who need deliverance. No, I don't hate sinners, seeing that we all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. However, I can discern between good and evil. Face facts, sinners need salvation. Not laws turned upside down to make things appear normal so they don't see the need nor the danger in not repenting of their sins. Good Friday! Come on man! Think about what the message means to us all. Think and pray!

Posted By: I fa common sense On: 4/2/2010

Title: LET THE FUN BEGIN!

@ Folly, with my "heathenistic" views and your " rights based" society with no moral judgments or laws, I could REALLY enjoy myself. I think I better start supporting your rights based society argument!

Posted By: I fa common sense On: 4/2/2010

Title: ME ansd VOLTAIRE'S list of AGREEMENTS

WE AGREE ON LEGALIZED PROSTITUTION IF THE PARTICIPANTS ARE DOING IT FREELY
WE AGREE ON SEX AND MARRIAGE BETWEEN SIBLINGS IF THEY ARE TO BE STERILIZED
WE AGREE ON A PERSON BEING MARRIED TO SEVERAL PEOPLE AT THE SAME TIME
WE AGREE THAT A MOTHER SHOULD BE ABLE TO MARRY HER SON if no reproduction
WE AGREE THAT A MOTHER SHOULD BE ABLE TO MARRY HER DAUGHTER
WE AGREE THAT A FATHER SHOULD BE ABLE TO MARRY HIS DAUGHTER if no reproduction
WE AGREE THAT A FATHER SHOULD BE ABLE TO MARRY HIS SON( but in my case not until nature first concedes to boongyin)

Posted By: I fa common sense On: 4/2/2010

Title: Glad to know you are okay

@ Folly, hey buddy you are avoiding my questions. I guess answering them would contradict your entire argument!
1) What problem do you have with me being allowed to legally go and buy some nookie from a woman who is freely selling nookie? I want to be able to legally buy all the sex I want!
2)With regards to me and Voltaire's list of agreements,"They don't involve merely two consenting adults", pray tell me who else do they involve?

Posted By: Erasmus Folly On: 4/2/2010

Title: Sad you think that way... another take?

@A Bahamian
Beautiful song, always been one of my favourites. I am no foreigner. I am Bahamian too. The Bahamas you seek to preserve would be even better protected by a full embrace of human rights. There is no contradiction. That is the fulfillment of Christ's message of love, fogiveness and caring for one's neighbour. Homosexuality is not a perversion. It is yet another expression of God's image of man. To think otherwise is to believe the Creator made a mistake. I can't see that as a possibility. Do you? A rights based democracy is the Bahamas saying to the world, we are small, we are unique, we are beautiful, we are proud and look what we have achieved with democracy, human rights and a cosmopolitan culture. That has been our history and to perfect it is no sin.

Posted By: I fa common sense On: 4/2/2010

Title: MISSING! MISSING!

I CAN'T SEEM TO FIND MY BUDDIES MR. FOLLY AND VOLTAIRE. IF ANY OF YOU KNOW OF THEIR WHEREABOUTS PLEASE TELL THEM THAT I'M LOOKING FOR THEM. OUR JOB IS NOT FINISHED! WE HAVE WORK TO DO! WE ARE ON OUR PATH TO A LOGICAL CONCLUSION!

Posted By: A Bahamian On: 4/2/2010

Title: The Real Mother

This debate has been going on for far too long. The truth be told, Bahamians in general love Jesus Christ, whether they are in various stages of personal commitment is a matter between each individual and God. Many still recognize their need of God. Most Bahamians understand the difference between “religion” and “relationship”. Jesus never established a “religion” but rather He showed lost mankind how to be put right with God through a “personal relationship” with Him. Over the years, the Bahamas has been subtly seduced by the proliferation of the “ways of the wicked”. Now here we are today and it has become necessary to speak out concerning this so-called homosexual debate. I am speaking out for the generations to come. I am speaking out for the Truth. I am speaking out because it is time to sound the alarm and say “Back off satan! We fa Jesus!” Get it? We have been called ignorant and proud. And for what reason? Because we still have enough courage and faith in Almighty God to fear His warnings about sin in all its forms. Much as we love America, England, France, Africa, etc. we are none of these nations. We are who we are and we love our “Islands in the sun”. We love our children and God forbid the day two men stand up in a Bahamian court for the “wrong” to marry each other. God forbid!
What I have been hearing is the cry “Kill the baby!” whenever I hear persons rallying for freedom to engage in all forms of perversion. Not the Bahamas jack! The cry “Kill the baby” emerged from the lips of the woman who was not the natural mother of the infant she had stolen from his real mother. This was the first test of the wisdom of king Solomon. He called for a sword and commanded to divide the infant in two and give a half to each woman. The real mother cried out and said “Let her have him!” and the thieving woman said “Let neither one of us have Him!” Solomon said, “Give Him to her who said ‘let her have him’ for she is the real mother.” The Bahamas is the baby. Bahamians are the real mother. Foreign interests who do not love this country but would rather see it destroyed are crying out for the laws to allow any amount of perversion imaginable in our land. What they are saying is “Kill the baby!” Neither do they love the God whom we serve. They are trying to give us other gods! Beware Bahamas! Beware!
“This is my Island in the Sun”
by Harry Belafonte and Irving Burgess
“This is my island in the sun
Where my people have toiled since time begun
I may sail on many a sea
Her shores will always be home to me.
Oh island in the sun,
Built to me by my Father’s hand
All my days I will sing in praise
Of your forest waters and shining sand.”
“As morning breaks the heaven on high.
I lift my heavy load to the sky.
Sun comes down with a burning glow
Mingles my sweat with the earthly low.”
Oh island in the sun,
Built to me by my Father’s hand
All my days I will sing in praise
Of your forest waters and shining sand.”

Posted By: Just Noticing On: 4/1/2010

Title: Thats not Fair

I want to gamble and go to the strip club without fear of being arrested.
Man, the tourists is do it and get away with it and I can't. Thats B.S.!

Posted By: Natural Man On: 4/1/2010

Title: gays/lesbians have Unnatural sex

gays/lesbians have unnatural sex. Because they want to, but cant have children but can have pleasure even tho its unnatural pleasure. rectum has healthy and unhealthy bacteria inside and always expels waste from food. vagina lets sperm in and baby out after 9 months. those are natural processes.
A man walking and talking and dressing like a woman is his choice but its not Natural.
If its fair treatment you want thats what you should get but dont come round herre talking that gay sex or lebian sex is normal or natural. Dont adopt children just adopt young adults who love the gay lifestyle at leaast they know the different lifestyles compared to children who dont know any thing yet and are forming their own opions with info as they get it with no experience.

Posted By: Just Loking with My Eyes On: 4/1/2010

Title: Bahamas in Trouble. Do something Now!

Legalize gambling for bahamains its already here for tourists. Yall sstop from joking!
Problems is the young adults or kids having kids who dont know a thing about bringing up a child only Cable tv and driving this flashy car and wearing bling with a bad attitude.
They Need to wake up from that dream land that that stuff is TV and more possible to maybe attain if you live in the USA not in this Hades ho*le. where the bahamian celebrities is the politicians, lawyers, doctors, busnessmen/women. they are in the good old boys and girls club.
While we suffer and the single parents suffer because of lack of real world training and preparation and being confused and brainwashed of MTV and these American shows. Instead of working honeslty and having healthy relationships so that their child can have healthy influences with the right positive people instead of repeating the same dumb, uneducated, ghetto, cycle again and again. And to know what are really healthy relationships in the first place.
Man the Bahamas is in some deep poo, poo.

Posted By: Just another fornicator On: 4/1/2010

Title: Brilliant

I read Lyall Bethell's response to this article today (April 1st) and his arguments are feeble in comparison to Ms. Thomspon's well-though out points. Worse, he proved his own disingenuousness through his use of weak sources (NAMBLA, with 1200 members, as a representative for the homosexual community?) and the clever and crafty extraction of quotes while disregarding the original context in which those words were written or spoken. Bethell's tone was, indeed, condescending and Ms. Thompson addressed this head on, while flexing her journalistic muscle.
I, too, find it odd that the Christian Council and their representatives are outraged by the very private activities of one group (homosexuals), while asserting that those of another group (husbands who rape) be overlooked or, worse, protected (laughably for the protection of the family). I will also suggest that readers avail themselves of the true definition of sodomy, because they may find that they (married or not) have unknowingly put themselves at odds with laws that were on the books until fairly recently. Apparently the Christian council needs to be reminded of what truly ails our society, instead of trying desperately to find scapegoats. Kudos to the Tribune and Taneka Thompson!

Posted By: Observer On: 4/1/2010

Title: Unatural Gays/Lesbians

Gays should not adopt children only young adults. Children are impressionable. They may say hey friends i got 2 dads. And think that its normal or natural.
Like Michael Jackson think its normal for kids to sleep in his bed and they are not even his family members, cousins, neice, etc.
Children rights are being infringed by gays. If some people are so smart. Why dont gay people adopt young adults who choose to be in that type of family who knows most of the basic arguments, predjudices, opinions, potential consequences of gay and heterosexual lifestyles including living in a monogamous or open or whorish/jigalloo lifestyle.
Homosexuality is not natural and they have never been hosed down with hot water, drink from separate water fountains like black people were. More blacks and mixed people were killed because of their different look and color compared to some few gays killed because of their sexual unnatural preference.
I am for fair treatment for gays/lesbians but not marriage or child adoption. I know it een that hard for a gay to add their partner to their will, insurance, etc. Why have marriage for gays? Its just they want to be accepted as normal but their sexual preference is NOT! Normal in appearance and hopefully normal treatment but their sexual activities is UNNATURAL!
No baby never came out of a gay man's butt. Or no Sperm never came out of a Vulva either. Go figure that one out you ignoranat gay/lesbian sympathizers, I aint afraid of you or your lifestyle its Not Natural. That Aint Ignorant Open Your eyes and See!

Posted By: I fa common sense On: 4/1/2010

Title: Why the laughter?

@ Voltaire I think I may have to stop showing people our "list of agreements". I thought I would have to perform CPR on my lawyer, she couldn't stop laughing. I don't know what that meant, she couldn't respond, just kept laughing. But being a man of my word, I'll continue to 20 persons.

Posted By: I fa common sense On: 4/1/2010

Title: Guess he realizes he has lost his cause

@ I noticed you have stopped all response to me which is quite alright. Like I said I always questioned whether you were A REAL BIG MAN.

Posted By: I fa common sense On: 4/1/2010

Title: Mr Folly's deception score 12-0 in my favour

@Mr. Folly, I asked 2 "learned people" today, my lawyer and an MBA. However, I disallowed the MBA after I discovered that she was a lay pastor. Trying to keep this fair and balanced! My lawyer said that she can gather only one logical conclusion concerning the message being relayed.

Posted By: erasmus folly On: 4/1/2010

Title:

@To God be the Glory
All about the love buddy. Just minus the 'religion". Spirituality does not require religion. I respect your beleifs and I truly do admire the moral/ethical teachings of Jesus. Judging gay people was not one of them. I choose to get my metaphysical, epistemological and scientific info from other sources than the Bible. Jesus has a great moral/ethical message, but on scientific issues it offers little.

Posted By: I fa common sense On: 4/1/2010

Title: My bud, Mr Folly hasn't responded to me in almost 2 days

SMT. SIGHS. I really miss him. I think he's a better debater than our buddy Voltaire.

Posted By: To Go be The Glory On: 3/31/2010

Title: It's All About Love

Love will warn you when you are headed for disaster.
Love may even stand in the way and take the blows intended for you.
Love will bear the insults patiently hurled in defiance of love's best efforts to protect you.
Love will speak the truth and expose the lies sent to destroy you.
Love will pick you up, brush you off, comfort, forgive and not condemn you.
Love will set you on the right path and give you the help you need.
Love will heal comfort and guide you.
Love will allow you to feel the consequences of wrong choices but not for too long. (If you repent)
Don't throw any barbs but think on these things.
Love willl not flatter you in order to set you up for a later fall.
Just some observations.

Posted By: I fa common sense On: 3/31/2010

Title: So far it's just us buddy

@Voltaire, by the way the "learned people" I spoke with today, concerning our list, pretty much agreed with those from yesterday.

Posted By: I fa common sense On: 3/31/2010

Title: Hey!

@Voltire, hey buddy, you back. At this point I think I need to ask what are your criteria for someone being "learned"? Do you think we should have Adult porn theaters?
1) I think i gave you my definition of both. The problem is you do not agree with my definition. Refresh my memory, what are your broader definitions and let's go from there.
2) I don't know about all this God stuff and personality stuff. My thing is, if a seed falls in the ground in the wilderness and it grows into a tree nature provided everything that the seed needed. Animals are born and they have inherent instincts that match their body naturally. I mean, I don't know what more you want from me on that issue. But perhaps after you provide your definitions I may see what you are driving at

Posted By: Voltaire On: 3/31/2010

Title:

Common Sense - that fact that the people you talked to feel we are backed into a corner is evidence that they ain't so "learned". I don't know what response you are awaiting from me, but I'm still waiting for two from you:
1)
Common Sense - you are being willfully ignorant. You are defining "nature" and "democracy" to suit your argument. All the necessary evidence to establish the broader definitions have been supplied to you.
Like I said before, it is clear you just don't like gay people and are searching around for an argument that will fit that prejudice.
No one is twisting your arguments by saying you would agree with Hitler and ban airplanes. Those are the logical consequences of the convictions you claim to hold.
2)
"...But because we are having a logical discussion and not expressing meaningless beliefs, if you introduce something like your "belief that nature provides for what it intends" then you need to qualify that. Who do you think is directing nature to do this? Is it God, or do you believe like some primitive tribes, that nature itself has a personality."

1)
Common Sense - you are being willfully ignorant. You are defining "nature" and "democracy" to suit your argument. All the necessary evidence to establish the broader definitions have been supplied to you.
Like I said before, it is clear you just don't like gay people and are searching around for an argument that will fit that prejudice.
No one is twisting your arguments by saying you would agree with Hitler and ban airplanes. Those are the logical consequences of the convictions you claim to hold.
2)
"...But because we are having a logical discussion and not expressing meaningless beliefs, if you introduce something like your "belief that nature provides for what it intends" then you need to qualify that. Who do you think is directing nature to do this? Is it God, or do you believe like some primitive tribes, that nature itself has a personality."" />

Posted By: I fa common sense On: 3/31/2010

Title: Thank you

I would like to thank the Tribune for this forum, which allows it readers to debate issues to a logical conclusion with out any editorializing. Thank you Tribune. Thank you J. Robertson.

Posted By: I fa common sense On: 3/31/2010

Title: No, noone has told me yet...but thanks!

@Paul, LOL, to the contrary. Many person's have commented that they have found these exchanges to be quite informative. As a matter of fact, some people have said they just realized the homosexuality of animals. Of course, I don't know if they're brown-nosing but they said they think the other two participants have backed themselves into a corner, and they are awaiting their responses.

Posted By: I fa common sense On: 3/31/2010

Title: MR FOLLY'S DECEPTION SCORE 11-0 in my favour

@ Mr Folly I asked 5 additional "learned people" to look at your quote below, I had to disallow one because she was one semester short of her BA and might not be "learned" enough, and they all agreed that there's is only one logical conclusion! 2 BAs, 1 engineer and 1 CPA
SPECIAL Emphasis mine...APOLOGIzE for your attempt at deceit
Title: Where the DECEIT BEGAN...ERASMUS FOLLY3/27/2010
"I am pointing out that for the Bahamas to actually deliver on its Constitutional obligation of guaranteeing all of its citizens freedom of religion (including freedom FROM religion) and equal rights, IT MUST ALLOW FOR GAY "CIVIL UNIONS" AND THUS "GAY RIGHTS'". That would guarantee that every man, woman and child in the Bahamas has the full rights afforded to them under the Constitution and that the law doesn't prejudice according to race, ethnicity, sex or gender against any Bahamian in their own land. THAT IS WHAT I Am REFERRING TO - this democracy growing up and completing and perfecting its democratic character and JOINING THE LIST of 'enlightened' and 'advanced' democracies in the world"

SPECIAL Emphasis mine...APOLOGIzE for your attempt at deceit
Title: Where the DECEIT BEGAN...ERASMUS FOLLY3/27/2010
"I am pointing out that for the Bahamas to actually deliver on its Constitutional obligation of guaranteeing all of its citizens freedom of religion (including freedom FROM religion) and equal rights, IT MUST ALLOW FOR GAY "CIVIL UNIONS" AND THUS "GAY RIGHTS'". That would guarantee that every man, woman and child in the Bahamas has the full rights afforded to them under the Constitution and that the law doesn't prejudice according to race, ethnicity, sex or gender against any Bahamian in their own land. THAT IS WHAT I Am REFERRING TO - this democracy growing up and completing and perfecting its democratic character and JOINING THE LIST of 'enlightened' and 'advanced' democracies in the world"" />

Posted By: I fa common sense On: 3/31/2010

Title: RUN FOLLY RUN

@Mr. Folly, I notice you're avoiding my question but that's okay. In response to your quote at To God be the glory, "They don't involve merely two consenting adults", pray tell me who else do they involve?

Posted By: PAUL HANNA MK11 On: 3/31/2010

Title: I FO COMMON SENSE

ANYBODY TELL YOU YET THAT YOUR BORING

Posted By: erasmus folly On: 3/31/2010

Title:

@To God be the Glory
I'm not advocating what the other two have been talking about. I am advocating for a rights based democracy. For the perfection and completion of our rights based democracy to be precise. Those other 'rights' that common non-sense wants aren't 'rights' per se. They don't involve merely two consenting adults. Different scenarios entirely. We are not all subject to your religious beliefs though. Not evernyone in the Bahamas is Christian. We are not a theocracy by the laws of the land either. You are entitled to your beleifs, but you aren't entitled to force everyone to the.

Posted By: I fa common sense On: 3/31/2010

Title: Long haul

Oh and before I forget, you guys don't have to worry about me abandoning ya'll. Because like I said, I in dis for da long haul.

Posted By: I fa common sense On: 3/31/2010

Title: The inquiry continues

@Voltaire & Mr Folly, I'm feeling kinda neglected. This is the longest it has taken you to post in response to me. I miss you guys, and I'm looking forward to your return, there is so much more to discuss on this issue. As I go out today I've put the copies in my pocket. THE INQUIRY CONTINUES. I'VE GOT TO ASK 13 MORE " LEARNED PEOPLE"

Posted By: To God Be the Glory On: 3/31/2010

Title: My Right to Debate

I don't look to Governments to protect my right to debate. Neither did my Lord Jesus Christ. He said what He had to say and then told them what they were thinking and He backed up His Word by healing the sick, raising the dead, casting out devils, opening the eyes of the blind, working miracles and rising from the dead after telling his accusers what he was capable of doing and then doing it after they did what they had to do. So you want to know if I hate homosexuals? No. All sinners everywhere are commanded to repent of their sins. This is God the Creator's commands to mankind His creation. I want to meet the human who is wiser than The Almighty.

Posted By: To God be the Glory On: 3/31/2010

Title: Fishbone comment

Das a woman speaking sarcastically. Do you all know the meaning of the name satan? If you don't it means "accuser". He is described as "the accuser of the brethren". Try to avoid making accusations, speak graciously. If you throw off morals, values, and above all God's commandments, what kind of society are you envisioning for the Bahamas? Are you really a Bahamian? Just asking! Do you call this type of society you espouse "modern", first world, etc? Do you think we are idiots? Confusion is used by satan to disguise his evil works.

Posted By: I fa common sense On: 3/30/2010

Title: I really want prostitution legalized

@Mr. Folly, I just finished watching my first clip and it dawned on me, you have not answered the question, what problem do you have with me being allowed to legally go and buy some nookie from a woman who is freely selling nookie? I want to be able to legally buy all the sex I want! Answer please. Please, please. I want the view of a "very learned person"

Posted By: I fa common sense On: 3/30/2010

Title: PORN PARADISE

I maybe brief with you guys tonight, my wife said when she comes home she is looking for some sweet loving, man I love this woman. AND i have to get in my pre-sex porn warm up. Hey Voltaire, do you agree that they should allow movie theaters, where consenting, sane, adults can go and WATCH PORN ON THE BIG SCREEN? MAN, that would be my version of heaven! Answer please.

Posted By: I fa common sense On: 3/30/2010

Title: ME and VOLTAIRE'S list of AGREEMENTS

Posted By: I fa common sense On: 3/30/2010

Title: At least I gat company

@ Voltaire I asked these same 5 learned people about our list of agreements. After looking at it they all determined, to put it briefly, that we are both @sses! But if you are in agreement with me I'm happy to have you in my company. I don't get many people in agreement with my views. I told you I am a heathen

Posted By: I fa common sense On: 3/30/2010

Title: Apologise, BE A BIG MAN

@ Mr Folly, I am offering you a way out, you can apologize and say that it was not your intent to be deceitful, but you see how that statement can be misleading. in talking to my "learned people" I picked up some nice pointers on linguistics, caus i only been to Guvman High Scool

Posted By: I fa common sense On: 3/30/2010

Title: MR FOLLY'S DECEPTION SCORE 7-0 in my favour

@ Mr Folly I asked 5 additional "learned people" to look at your quote below and they all agreed that there's is only one logical conclusion! In total that makes 7. 3 B.As, 2 MBAs, one engineer and my doctor! I'll keep enquiring until I reach 20.
SPECIAL Emphasis mine...APOLOGIzE for your attempt at deceit
Title: Where the DECEIT BEGAN...ERASMUS FOLLY3/27/2010
"I am pointing out that for the Bahamas to actually deliver on its Constitutional obligation of guaranteeing all of its citizens freedom of religion (including freedom FROM religion) and equal rights, IT MUST ALLOW FOR GAY "CIVIL UNIONS" AND THUS "GAY RIGHTS'". That would guarantee that every man, woman and child in the Bahamas has the full rights afforded to them under the Constitution and that the law doesn't prejudice according to race, ethnicity, sex or gender against any Bahamian in their own land. THAT IS WHAT I Am REFERRING TO - this democracy growing up and completing and perfecting its democratic character and JOINING THE LIST of 'enlightened' and 'advanced' democracies in the world"

Posted By: erasmus folly On: 3/30/2010

Title:

Fish bone is using sarcasm, but he captures the 'mentality' and 'voice' of many of these 'animals' who use Jesus message to justify the subjugation of women and the condemnation of gays.

Posted By: erasmus folly On: 3/30/2010

Title: why?

@To God be the Glory
Go read the post from fish bone ya throat on the newest Insight piece and witness the filth some try to justify in this country in his name. Scary. These are animals justifying their basest urges and most vulgar cravings with 'sermons' from God?! That should scare all of us. That is Iranian or Saudi nonsense - not Bahamian Christianity I could ever 'uphold'. Taliban mentality is not Jesus message. That is what we have here. The other Christian nations, for the most part, are moving towards freedom and openness, why Bahamas choosing Arab/African ways?

Posted By: Voltaire On: 3/30/2010

Title:

You don't need to ask learned people anything... you talkin to them now. ;)
As stubborn as you are, I hope you at least learned something in this debate.

Posted By: Voltaire On: 3/30/2010

Title:

Common Sense - you are being willfully ignorant. You are defining "nature" and "democracy" to suit your argument. All the necessary evidence to establish the broader definitions have been supplied to you.
Like I said before, it is clear you just don't like gay people and are searching around for an argument that will fit that prejudice.
No one is twisting your arguments by saying you would agree with Hitler and ban airplanes. Those are the logical consequences of the convictions you claim to hold.

Posted By: erasmus folly On: 3/30/2010

Title: Jesus and Gandhi

@To God be the Glory
As to your earlier question. I respect Jesus and Gandhi a great deal. I find, personally, that few Bahamian Christians I meet respect either of their words sincerely. That is my issue. My view on Christianity is best summed up by another quote of Gandhi's, "I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.". That is sadly a very succinct summary of many, not all, but many Bahamian Christians. You strike me as more devout and perhaps even sincere, but if you use your religion to justify hatred, condemnation, oppression, prejudice, discrimination or simply to belittle homosexuals, then, personally, I find you have already strayed from the real and deeper meaning of the message of love as shared by such 'prophets' as Jesus of Nazareth and Gandhi. Their message of love transformed the world. Your words don't drip or love, more like poisoned honey if used to oppress.

Posted By: erasmus folly On: 3/30/2010

Title:

@To God be the Glory
You are too far gone to debate. I respect your beliefs. I don't share them. To protect your right to your beliefs, you should protect other's rights to theirs. That is all.I can say. There is more to the world than just the words of the Bible. I concluded nothing, I asked. You 'judge', I don't find that very in keeping with your Christ's message. I don't share your 'fear' of confusion. Have you tried Bertrand Russell's well written book?

Posted By: To God be the Glory On: 3/30/2010

Title: Precisely

That is why the Christian message is so badly needed throughout all ages no matter who tries to fight against it--it will always prevail and it will set the captive free, because it is the truth. Jesus said to His disciples "All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to obsere all things whatsoever I have commanded you; an, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world." Matthew 28:18-20

Posted By: I fa common sense On: 3/30/2010

Title: Christian references mean nothing to non christians

To all, dese people ain realize ain erybody is christian,ey

Posted By: To God be the Glory On: 3/30/2010

Title: May I answer your Questions

@ E Folly. I answered the first sentence in my last post. Now, for the your second comment: Is my scripture rambling intended as proof against homosexuality? Is that the conclusion you draw from reading God's Words? Your conclusion is your thinking. As for all your other conclusions, ditto the preceding sentence. My personal view on the Homosexual Issue? It is sucking far too many people into a contrived atmosphere of confusion. I am handing this battle to the Lord. It is His fight! Do you really love the Bahamas or do you want to see its people thrown into constant confusion? If so why? What evil work will and is following?
33For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints. 1 Corinthians 14:33
This battle is not ours, it is the Lord's.
I don't want to see anyone end up in hell, not even my enemies. That is why I love what God did by sending His Son Jesus Christ to die on the cross to pay the price for our sins. The choice is still a personal one. That is why what you believe is of the utmost importance and not to be handled lightly. The right way to handle sin is to repent of it, confess it, and for sake it. You find this is true when you actually do it. And God who is real, knows when you are serious and not joking. The wrong way is to pamper it up, try to get everybody to accept it, and then make laws to protect its practice. That goes for all sins. In conclusion, listen to Jesus' explanation to his disciples who wanted to know why they could not cast the demon out of a young boy: "And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you."

Posted By: I fa common sense On: 3/30/2010

Title: I hope I get enough learned people to agree with our list

@ Voltaire, I ga print dis list and start asking "learned people" their opinion.

Posted By: I fa common sense On: 3/30/2010

Title: JUST RECAPPING AND UPDATING

@ Voltaire, so far
WE AGREE ON LEGALIZED PROSTITUTION IF THE PARTICIPANTS ARE DOING IT FREELY
WE AGREE ON SEX AND MARRIAGE BETWEEN SIBLINGS IF THEY ARE TO BE STERILIZED
WE AGREE ON A PERSON BEING MARRIED TO SEVERAL PEOPLE AT THE SAME TIME
WE AGREE THAT A MOTHER SHOULD BE ABLE TO MARRY HER SON if no reproduction
WE AGREE THAT A MOTHER SHOULD BE ABLE TO MARRY HER DAUGHTER
WE AGREE THAT A FATHER SHOULD BE ABLE TO MARRY HIS DAUGHTER if no reproduction
WE AGREE THAT A FATHER SHOULD BE ABLE TO MARRY HIS SON( but in my case not until nature first concedes to boongyin)

Posted By: I fa common sense On: 3/30/2010

Title: I ga start asking learned people

@ Voltaire, "it has to become common practice"...hmmm. So boongying in humans is not common practice! In other words it is not normal in humans. Therefore, it is uncommon and abnormal. I don't insist on drawing the line, I have repeatedly said when we have evolved to the point that boongying in humans becomes "natural" then I would consider legitimizing it. That is my timeline. Everything in it's time.
My view on democracy has been stated, ONE MAN, ONE VOTE, MAJORITY RULES. NOW, you can twist that anyway you want. That's another question I think I'll ask my "learned people" when I encounter them! What is their definition of democracy?

Posted By: To God be the Glory On: 3/30/2010

Title: My You do Love a Fight

@ E Folly. Relax. So Gandhi must have read Jesus' teachings and could it be that he was interpreting Jesus' words and later on some people attribute these interpretations to Gandhi instead of the source from which he derived them? Actually, anybody who is a righteous person would love Jesus. Anybody who has true love for others knows Jesus. There is no contest between mere mortals and the Everlasting Father. All the ranting and raving in the world against Him does not move Him one iota. One day we will all stand before Him and then what? Why are you so stuck on this homosexual issue anyway? You make one big mistake when you generalize about others. You limit them to your own way of thinking when in fact everyone as individuals bring their own unique experience into each picture. What a waste to generalize! You miss so much and your world view is so limited. So you agree with Gandhi and you also respect Jesus? But do not respect His Words? How so?

Posted By: I fa common sense On: 3/30/2010

Title: You know the answer to that

@ Voltaire, we don't want to discriminate on gender, do we? We can't allow women to marry until we also allow men to marry. And apparently society has a BIG problem with this boongying issue.

Posted By: I fa common sense On: 3/30/2010

Title: I REALLY want be able to buy nookie

@ Folly, you still here! You aint answer my question, what problem do you have with me being allowed to legally go and buy soom nookie from a woman who is freely selling nookie? I want to be able to legally buy all the sex I want! Answer please. Please, please.

Posted By: erasmus folly On: 3/30/2010

Title: @To God be the Glory

Sorry, I don't consider your book the be all and end all of thought. Pointing out that Gandhi and Jesus had similar quotes does't make a point. I already quoted Gandhi's quoted respect for Jesus, but his disapproval of Christianity as practiced by many modern Christians. I share that view. Is your scripture rambling intended as 'proof' against homosexuality? That is your religious thinking, not mine. We are both entitled to ur beliefs in a free Bahamas. Gay people should be as well. You can't 'end' arguments by merely quoting scripture. Reason, not appeals to arcane texts as authority statements, is what wins an argument. What is ypur point about this issue? That because of your religion, we are all going to hell and gay people will as well?

Posted By: Voltaire On: 3/30/2010

Title:

Question: so what about gay women? They only perform oral sex. Why can't they marry?

Posted By: Voltaire On: 3/30/2010

Title:

Common Sense - what I am trying to say to you is that what you consider a distinction or difference is not actually a distinction. Before physicality can provide for a certain kind of behavior (boongying as you call it) it has to become common practice. Physical adaptation comes later. But both are a part of nature. Why do you insist on drawing the line at one but not the other? If you don't give a reason, it comes across as if you are merely pretending that you believe this - that you just don't want gays to marry and will make any excuse, whether you believe in it or not. Its just like your "democracy" argument. I know you wouldn't really be supporting slavery and gang rape and Nazism if they were the will of the majority - you are just saying that.

Posted By: Voltaire On: 3/30/2010

Title:

Yeah man, I got no problem with those unions. Shoots - we got some places in the Bahamas where that is not the exception, it is the rule!

Posted By: To God be the Glory On: 3/29/2010

Title: So you do believe

@Folly. Not my purpose to make any arguments, but to end some once and for all. Kindly consider the seriousness of these statements:
"Hosea 4:6
My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
22But if they had stood in my counsel, and had caused my people to hear my words, then they should have turned them from their evil way, and from the evil of their doings. Jeremiah 23:22
1. "Whenever you are confronted with an opponent. Conquer him with love.”
"But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.” Matt. 5:44
2.“Nobody can hurt me without my permission.
"No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD, and their righteousness is of me, saith the LORD” Isaiah 54:17
3.“Be the change you want to see in the world.”
“But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.” James 1:22
4.“There is nothing that wastes the body like worry, and one who has any faith in God s
"Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment? Matt. 6:24-26
"Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns;uld yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they?
be ashamed to worry about anything whatsoever”
5.“The weak can never forgive. Forgiveness is the attribute of the strong.”
Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.
Colossians 3:13
35So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses. Matthew 18:35
Luke 23:34
Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.
Luke 23
And so on

My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
22But if they had stood in my counsel, and had caused my people to hear my words, then they should have turned them from their evil way, and from the evil of their doings. Jeremiah 23:22
1. "Whenever you are confronted with an opponent. Conquer him with love.”
"But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.” Matt. 5:44
2.“Nobody can hurt me without my permission.
"No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD, and their righteousness is of me, saith the LORD” Isaiah 54:17
3.“Be the change you want to see in the world.”
“But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.” James 1:22
4.“There is nothing that wastes the body like worry, and one who has any faith in God s
"Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment? Matt. 6:24-26
"Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns;uld yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they?
be ashamed to worry about anything whatsoever”
5.“The weak can never forgive. Forgiveness is the attribute of the strong.”
Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.
Colossians 3:13
35So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses. Matthew 18:35
Luke 23:34
Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.
Luke 23
And so on" />

Posted By: I fa common sense On: 3/29/2010

Title: I tell you I have been labelled a heathen

@Voltaire, just another one I want your opinion on, should adult and sane, mother and daughter, mother and son, father and daughter, father and son also be allowed to marry as long as their is no chance of reproduction?

Posted By: I fa common sense On: 3/29/2010

Title: JUST A RECAP

Posted By: I fa common sense On: 3/29/2010

Title:

@ Voltaire, I really don't want to marry my aunt just sleep with her, and you and I agree on more issues than you think!

Posted By: I fa common sense On: 3/29/2010

Title:

@Folly, Man you need to just apologise so we can move beyond this point!

Posted By: I fa common sense On: 3/29/2010

Title: I hope this helps

@ Voltaire, back briefly. Man I thought you had more difficult questions.
We may have some difficulty because of our differences on the word natural.
1) I said, I AGREE that there is homosexuality in nature. This homosexual behavior takes many forms. Not wanting to be offensive, but if two men were to perform oral sex, nature supports this no form of artificial help needed. The same cannot be said for too men boongying because there is no lubrication. Unlike in giraffes where nature supports their "boongying" because it is done naturally. When men can boongy without lubrication then we would have evolved to the point of nature accepting it. Boongying is natural for giraffes, but unnatural for man!I hope you understand that.
And with regard to sterile people, sex is about more than reproduction, it is also about pleasure. I watch plenty porn I could tell you that. I have no problem with two men boongying for pleasure. I HAVE ALWAYS SAID THAT. I have also said that regardless of the role homosexuality plays in nature, or human, We have determined as a society that we will not legitimize that union, as we have determined that we won't legitimize several other unions. In the dwarf chimpanzee they have family orgies, nature allows humans to also have family orgies. However, we have determined as a society that we won't legitimize this.

Posted By: erasmus folly On: 3/29/2010

Title: truth

Some of those countries currently do, some don't, but all have signed the UNd declaration condemning gender and sexual orientation based discrimination. If they haven't currently passed the laws domestically then they are in the process or will be in the process. That still contrasts us with the backwards nations I mentioned. Moreover, Article 6 is clear to me. Once ratified it should imply all rights granted to one group that are denied to another based on gender and/or sexual orientation must be eliminated. That is a progressive and freedom loving rights based democracy at its finest.

Posted By: Voltaire On: 3/29/2010

Title:

QUESTIONS:
"...But because we are having a logical discussion and not expressing meaningless beliefs, if you introduce something like your "belief that nature provides for what it intends" then you need to qualify that. Who do you think is directing nature to do this? Is it God, or do you believe like some primitive tribes, that nature itself has a personality. Also, why do you bring the issue back again and again, to reproduction ("0 produced by man and man!") ?? If you are not religious, then there is no reason to use it as the benchmark of what is normal behaviour. Many things are natural besides reproduction, and many people are born without the ability to have children - should they be banned from having sex? I suppose you will argue 'survival of the species' but it has been shown that in many species, homosexuality plays an important socializing role equal to and sometimes more important to the ability to reproduce in large numbers.
One last thing, after your rant about the behavior of your dogs and cats, why are you again on the side of nature, when just a little while ago, you were against it?"

Posted By: Voltaire On: 3/29/2010

Title:

With regards to the incest issue - yeah sterilized siblings, I got no problem with that.
By the way... I think you are actually legally allowed to marry that aunt you like.

Posted By: Voltaire On: 3/29/2010

Title:

You can't define "nature" as "being in accordance with or determined by nature" unless you say what characteristics nature has. Otherwise its like defining "tree" as "something that's treelike" It is meaningless. Even so, how do you get from "being in accordance with or determined by nature" to your lubrication argument? What if I say to you that the characteristics of "nature" are constant flux and change, a continual state of becoming dominated by various forms of adaptation, including non-physiological behavioral adaptation. (This is another way of saying evolution - you might have heard of it). Many animals use homosexuality as such a behavioral adaptation. Therefore, homosexuality fits with your definition of "being in accordance with or determined by nature" despite the fact that there is no physiological (physical) adaptation.

Posted By: I fa common sense On: 3/29/2010

Title: I value honesty

@ Voltaire, apparently you aren't aware of the "many" definitions of the word, one of which is "being in accordance with or determined by nature" man's penis going into boongy is not determined by or in accordance with nature, as nature has not provided for it, no lubrication. Hence it is unnatural! Look up that word too!
And contrary to you saying, many societies pass laws protecting their views and self interests, ALL SOCIETIES DO! That's what determines the structure, make-up and laws of that society!
I value your honesty on the polygamy issue as I am a proponent of such, but our society has determined that they ain inta dat! I respect their view. With regard the incest issue if the participants agree to be sterilized do you think they should be allowed to marry as there will be no offspring? Answer please.
The wife is home! Post the list of questions you are referring to I'll try to answer when I get time.

Posted By: Voltaire On: 3/29/2010

Title:

I fa common sense - I know that is YOUR definition of natural. It also happens to be incorrect. I'm not going to explain how yet again, as I have already done so several times. I have noticed that your strategy seems to be to ignore points you are incapable of answering and blindly repeating arguments that have been shown to be wrong.
As far as what you say about society protecting views and self interest - yes, many do, but many of them are also not rights-based societies properly speaking. Laws will always be to some extent a question of power and special interests in any society, but for anyone who values fairness and justice, fighting the good fight means promoting the rights of individuals. Now, you have already said these things are not your concern, as you prefer to follow the herd no matter what kind of tyranny and oppression it leads to. Fair enough. But again, you continue to put this down to modern, 'enlightened democracy' by using a definition which is reductive and misleading.
As regards the ban on siblings marrying, the rights based perspective is to protect their offspring from the high probability of deformity and mental retardation in such a union. Again protecting the rights of those who cannot protect their own.
As far as polygamy is concerned, it is in fact legal in some places. There may be legal complications with regards to parental responsibilities and property rights in such an arrangement. But if these can be resolved in a framework that protects the rights of all concerned, including the children, there is really no reason why consenting adults should not be able to enter into such a union.
But again... why will you not answer my questions?

Posted By: I fa common sense On: 3/29/2010

Title: Society has the right to say some stuff...

@ Voltaire,that is not my point at all, my point is, when nature is ready for two men to boongy then the boongy will produce a pleasant lubricant or adapt to accommodate the bashing! Until then nature, has not conceded to two big grey men boongying! If nature hasn't conceded then it is unnatural! That is my point on that issue.
Society also protects the views, that the particular society determines is in it's own self interest, that is why it's against the law for adult, sane brother and sister to marry. That is why it is against the law for three, sane, adult, healthy individuals to marry. That is also why it is against the law in this society for boongy bandits to marry! SO in addition, to your partial response about the disabled and kids, unless you are saying that as long as it is two, three or more, sane consenting, healthy adults, society should stay out the way and legitimize it.

Posted By: Voltaire On: 3/29/2010

Title:

Common Sense - come on man, think before you post. The entire point of this conversation is that adaptive behavior is OUTSIDE the range of the body's normal functions...ie, your lubrication argument is actually no argument at all.
When it comes to why you can't masturbate in public etc, we already discussed society's need to protect those who through age or disability have a diminished capacity. In other words, we are protecting the children from your naked, lascivious self. Still, like smoking, public nudity should not be banned, only contained in areas where consenting adults can congregate to be naked together - like a nudist colony or that Hedonism place in Jamaica.
What quote did i not respond to? And why have you still, STILL not answered my questions??

Posted By: I fa common sense On: 3/29/2010

Title: FOR VOLTAIRE

@Voltaire,1) you didn't respond to your first quote I posted 2) Who do I harm by masturbating in public? Or walking down Bay Street naked? Why are these illegal?
3) Look up the definitions of the word natural. 4) The human body doesn't fly or go 60 miles an hour. Talk sense man, we talkin bout da human body and nature/ what it does naturally.

Posted By: I fa common sense On: 3/29/2010

Title: LOL, LOL

@ Voltaire, You ain answer your questions an' wan answer Folly own! Folly appeared to have a problem with it based on a few posts back. I wan folly ansa dat. Why you ain ansa yours? See i talkin ignant, sins yall tink i is!

Posted By: Voltaire On: 3/29/2010

Title:

Common Sense - The problem with you 'freely' buying lil nookie, as you put it, is a good example of how a rights based society should work. The answer is, nothing is wrong with it, as long as you can verify and certify that the woman hasn't become a prostitute through force, threats, blackmail or any other form of coercion. Even then, you have to verify that she is not being taken advantage of or intimidated by her employers. Such a 'free' prostitute is very rare. If you cannot verify these things, then there is the possibility that you may be taking advantage of a victim who is having her rights violated. This is the case with all the "sins" in your slippery slope argument. In gay marriage, there are no victims.

Posted By: I fa common sense On: 3/29/2010

Title: A BIG MAN WOULD APOLOGIZE

@ Folly, I know the document of which you speak, there is no dispute over that. The dispute is your purporting, by the quote below, that the countries supporting that document also support civil unions! I will keep my copy of that quote and the next 20 "learned people" I encounter I will ask their take on it. If 5 of the 20 do not support my view I will desist. UNTIL then YOU ARE DECEITFUL!
What's wrong with me freely buying a lil nookie? Answer that please.

Posted By: erasmus folly On: 3/29/2010

Title: no deceit, no apology, no surrender. the ignorant are not teachers!

And I repeat, for the last time. There is no deceit. Read Article 6 of the UN Declaration. It is implicit there. The UN statement has been signed, but not yet ratified. The question remains, are we a democracy that defends human rights in 2010 or are we with Iran, Saudi Arabia and the backwards African countries?

Posted By: I fa common sense On: 3/29/2010

Title: Apologise...restore your integrity

SPECIAL Emphasis mine...APOLOGISE for your attempt at deceit
Title: Where the DECEIT BEGAN...ERASMUS FOLLY3/27/2010
@ Folly,"I am pointing out that for the Bahamas to actually deliver on its Constitutional obligation of guaranteeing all of its citizens freedom of religion (including freedom FROM religion) and equal rights, IT MUST ALLOW FOR GAY "CIVIL UNIONS" AND THUS "GAY RIGHTS'". That would guarantee that every man, woman and child in the Bahamas has the full rights afforded to them under the Constitution and that the law doesn't prejudice according to race, ethnicity, sex or gender against any Bahamian in their own land. THAT IS WHAT I AN REFERRING TO - this democracy growing up and completing and perfecting its democratic character and JOINING THE LIST of 'enlightened' and 'advanced' democracies in the world"

Posted By: I fa common sense On: 3/29/2010

Title: Fight for my right to pay for sex

@ Folly, whats so wrong with two people freely having sex for money? I want legal prostitution man!

Posted By: I fa common sense On: 3/29/2010

Title: AHH MY...DECIVER CAUGHT!

@ Folly, okay my bad CIVIL UNION. You made a deceitful attempt to link rights to civil union as a requirement to be on that list. I printed that quote and asked two of my "learned" friends what they came away with. Both said that was an attempt to link it as such.
Having been proven as a liar because numerous countries on that list don't support civil unions, you refuse to do the honorable thing and apologize. Instead like most deceivers when caught, you have now turned to name calling and temper tantrums. THAT IS YOUR RIGHT respect mine to say NO CIVIL UNION FOR BOONGY BANDITS!

Posted By: Erasmus Folly On: 3/29/2010

Title: Another thought for your ignorance...

By giving us the opinions of the uneducated, journalism keeps us in touch with the ignorance of the community.
Oscar Wilde

Posted By: I fa common sense On: 3/29/2010

Title: Talk sense man...boy yall educated people!

Posted By: Erasmus Folly On: 3/29/2010

Title: Emotionally juvenile!

And, as I pointed out, there is no deceit. Not granting civil unions under the terms of the UN Declaration of Human Rights that bans discrimination according to gender and/or sexual orientation, would be in violation of Article 6 of the declaration. It is not stated explicitly, but any lawyer could make that case easily as the reasoning is implicitly stated. Read it again. The Bahamas, as a member of the OAS, has signed that Declaration. Do you want legal hypocrisy because of your irrational and emotional 'feelings' about gays? Why so emotional to begin with?

Posted By: Voltaire On: 3/29/2010

Title:

Common sense, that don't make no sense. Rights based societies do not pick and choose between rights, they protect the rights of each individual to engage in any form of behavior, so long as it does not harm others or infringe on their rights. Your rights end where the rights of another individual begin, and vice versa. Also, what do you mean by "common decency"? Define your terms.
No one is twisting your words. You said: "When nature determines that boongying is going to be a form in mankind then the boongy will produce lubricant or adjust to comfortably accept constant prodding." My response was simply that this change in physicality you are waiting for is not necessary for the practice to be considered natural, by your own terms. This is because adaptation is as natural a part of natural selection as actual physical evolution.
I mentioned planes, etc, because you seem to be arguing that your basis for having a problem with homosexuality (the third basis you've tried, i believe) is that the body wasn't designed to do it. By that logic, we weren't designed to fly or go 60mph either.

Posted By: Erasmus Folly On: 3/29/2010

Title:

I defend your right to free speech. You aren't going to go to jail for your hateful speech... Read what I wrote; I owe you no apology. I didn't deceive anyone. Your accusation is unfounded. Your inability to think and understand reason is not my failing - it is yours. Thus far, you have demonstrated that you have an irrational, emotive, pathological, ignorant, paranoid and delusional fear of homosexuals. I can only surmise that your homophobic views haven't been shared directly with any of your gay friends, if you have any or would even consider having any. I hope you aren't as 'common' in the Bahamas as you would appear to be. You misrepresented my views repeatedly in saying that I was agitating for 'gay marriage', that is patently false. I respect that 'marriage', as an institution, was created by the church and should thus be the preserve of the church. Constitutionally, to remove all prejudice against gays in the law, the rights that would be conferred by marriage should be conferred via 'civil union'. There is no contradiction there or deceit. We are obligated to treat all people equal before the law. No one is advocating the nonsense you said would be a 'slippery slope'. No one is advocating the rights of paedophiles, people who engage in bestiality, prostitution or any of the other silly things you were suggesting. We are talking about the right of a grown Bahamian citizen to decide who he/she can or cannot date/enter a union with, so long as there is no minor involved and no monetary transaction either.
To 'despise' the ignorant is not to hate them, but to hate their easily predictable mental condition. Often, if not virtually always, their condition is not their fault, but pride with ignorance is never excusable and that is a very common Bahamian trait - great pride with unbelievable ignorance. It is probably the single greatest disease afflicting this country and it exists from MPs all the way down to the 'common' man.
Meditate on this, "“A coward is incapable of exhibiting love; it is the prerogative of the brave.” Mahatma Gandhi

Posted By: I fa common sense On: 3/29/2010

Title: SPECIAL Emphasis mine...APOLOGISE for your attempt at deceit

Title: Where the DECEIT BEGAN...ERASMUS FOLLY3/27/2010
@ Folly,"I am pointing out that for the Bahamas to actually deliver on its Constitutional obligation of guaranteeing all of its citizens freedom of religion (including freedom FROM religion) and equal rights, IT MUST ALLOW FOR GAY "CIVIL UNIONS" AND THUS "GAY RIGHTS'". That would guarantee that every man, woman and child in the Bahamas has the full rights afforded to them under the Constitution and that the law doesn't prejudice according to race, ethnicity, sex or gender against any Bahamian in their own land. THAT IS WHAT I AN REFERRING TO - this democracy growing up and completing and perfecting its democratic character and JOINING THE LIST of 'enlightened' and 'advanced' democracies in the world"

Posted By: I fa common sense On: 3/29/2010

Title: Defend my rights...please

@ Mr. Folly, I really shouldn't be talking to you until you apologize! Nevertheless, it seems as though you have the right to call people stupid, ignorant, backward, backwater, and I can't say boongy bandit! Please defend my rights! OR you only defend the rights of boongy bandits?

Posted By: I fa common sense On: 3/29/2010

Title: WE, THE BAHAMIAN PEOPLE, have determined no marriage for boongy bandits

@ Voltaire, your post 3/ 29/2010 "then both the extinction of species like the dinosaurs AND homosexuality are "meant to be". ANOTHER 3/29/2010 "Indeed, as democracy is conceived today, the minority's rights must be protected no matter how singular or alienated". I was speaking to the ridiculous notion that we defend every singular right. Rights based societies protect against this by determining what is in the best interest of that society, and which rights they won't allow based on common decency! Your reference to planes, driving etc. is totally off point. BUT, what I have come to realize is that you guys try to twist peoples words in all sorts of nonsensical ways, but I guess that's just your twisted reasoning.

Posted By: Erasmus Folly On: 3/29/2010

Title: Scripture vs Logic - No Contest

@To God be the Glory
Quoting scripture is not making an argument. I can quote too and they would be 'better' scripture in my opinion and more in keeping with your Christ's message:
"Whenever you are confronted with an opponent. Conquer him with love.”
“Be the change you want to see in the world.”
“Nobody can hurt me without my permission.”
“There is nothing that wastes the body like worry, and one who has any faith in God should be ashamed to worry about anything whatsoever”
“The weak can never forgive. Forgiveness is the attribute of the strong.”
“Whenever you have truth it must be given with love, or the message and the messenger will be rejected”
“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated”
“Prayer is not asking. It is a longing of the soul. It is daily admission of one's weakness. It is better in prayer to have a heart without words than words without a heart.”
“I believe in the fundamental Truth of all the great religions of the world. I believe that they are all God given. I came to the conclusion long ago... that all religions were true and also that all had some error in them.”
“A coward is incapable of exhibiting love; it is the prerogative of the brave.”
“When I admire the wonder of a sunset or the beauty of the moon, my soul expands in worship of the Creator”
“The law of love could be best understood and learned through little children”
“I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.”
“God has no religion”
“Intolerance betrays want of faith in one's cause”
“Faith... Must be enforced by reason...When faith becomes blind it dies.”
“The most heinous and the most cruel crimes of which history has record have been committed under the cover of religion or equally noble motives”
“What do I think of Western civilisation? I think it would be a very good idea.”
Mahatma Gandhi

“Be the change you want to see in the world.”
“Nobody can hurt me without my permission.”
“There is nothing that wastes the body like worry, and one who has any faith in God should be ashamed to worry about anything whatsoever”
“The weak can never forgive. Forgiveness is the attribute of the strong.”
“Whenever you have truth it must be given with love, or the message and the messenger will be rejected”
“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated”
“Prayer is not asking. It is a longing of the soul. It is daily admission of one's weakness. It is better in prayer to have a heart without words than words without a heart.”
“I believe in the fundamental Truth of all the great religions of the world. I believe that they are all God given. I came to the conclusion long ago... that all religions were true and also that all had some error in them.”
“A coward is incapable of exhibiting love; it is the prerogative of the brave.”
“When I admire the wonder of a sunset or the beauty of the moon, my soul expands in worship of the Creator”
“The law of love could be best understood and learned through little children”
“I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.”
“God has no religion”
“Intolerance betrays want of faith in one's cause”
“Faith... Must be enforced by reason...When faith becomes blind it dies.”
“The most heinous and the most cruel crimes of which history has record have been committed under the cover of religion or equally noble motives”
“What do I think of Western civilisation? I think it would be a very good idea.”
Mahatma Gandhi
" />

Posted By: Erasmus Folly On: 3/29/2010

Title: Bogus Accusations

And, he refuses to admit that his accusation of deceit against me is rubbish. His friend 'learning' knows it is rubbish too. I made two separate references. One was to the existing Constitution of the Bahamas; the other, to the list. These are mutually exclusive references. The point of referencing them is that if the Bahamas, along with the OAS, has signed the UN Declaration that is set to go into effect, then the Bahamas would have created, for itself, the legal obligation to eliminate all legal prejudices against gays in the laws of the Bahamas or run the risk of being in violation of Article 6. Unless you want to contend that some people are 'more equal' than others, then you have to accept this point for the sake of legal and logical consistency. Refusal to do so places the Bahamas in a legally hypocritical position, having affirmed to end discrimination and prejudice internationally, yet maintaining its enshrinement to the prejudice of gays domestically. There is nothing 'deceitful' in pointing that out. Any assertion to the contrary is bogus and unfounded. Your minds may not be subtle enough to grasp such a syllogism, but the syllogism is there for all readers to see.
Finally, I would like to point out that we are debating a man who has no regard for gay human rights at all to begin with. By constantly referring to these human beings who are the brothers, fathers, cousins, sisters, mothers, nephews and nieces of a great many of Bahamian who understand why 'rights' are important 'boongy bandits' he betrays the shallow, venial, nasty, brutish, ignorant and juvenile mentality of far too many of our 'countrymen'. At least, his hate isn't 'justified' by the 'love of Jesus', but it is hate nonetheless. I implore my fellow Bahamians to read this article and all that we have discussed and understand that defending the rights of every Bahamian adult against the 'tyranny of the majority' is the path to perfecting our commonwealth and ensuring a bright, free and democratic future for countless generations of future Bahamians. Say no to theocracy and ignorance and say yes to rights, democracy, freedom and a modern Bahamaland that can make us all proud and be a shining beacon of tolerance, freedom and democracy to the world. Let's show our best colours, not our worst!

Posted By: Voltaire On: 3/29/2010

Title:

Round and round, huh Common Sense? Fine, no problem: In response to your first post as I said before, there are very, very good reasons why democracy contains guards against the Tyranny of the Majority. They have to do with preventing oppression (did you read the piece about the African-American experience?). I doubt you will agree with these reasons however, as you have already said that you would support all manner of rape, torture and murder, as long as it is the will of the majority. Also, I find your remark about homosexuality not being a species curious... no one ever said it was... you obviously don't understand the difference between evolution and adaptation. Let me try and make it simple for you: countless species do things their bodies have not yet physically adapted to do in order to survive. Sometimes it works (the first monkey who tried to stand on two feet to run faster) and eventually the body adapts, sometimes it don't. Either way, adaptation is a perfectly natural process and a necessary part of life. If, for some strange reason, we followed your advice and banned it... well, we should really stop flying in planes, or driving at speeds faster than we can run. If the body ain't made for it, it ain't natural, right?
As to your argument that protecting the rights of minorities will lead to all manner of perversions in the street, you really shouldn't fearmonger like that. The way a rights based society guards against this has already been explained to you. Added to which, gay marriage is legal and has been for some time across most of Europe. Ever heard of beastiality in the streets in London? A huge outbreak of polygamy in Canada? I didn't think so. In actual fact, society there is pretty much exactly as it was there before that law was passed. The argument of cowards is always "If you let this one thing happen, it will open the floodgates".
But Common Sense... you still ain't answered none of my questions.....

Posted By: paul hanna mk 11 On: 3/29/2010

Title: i for common sense and voltaire

What a saga you two are developing.No its not natural but then a lot of things we do in life are not.The trouble is that the Bahamian people are so brainwashed by religion (and lets be honest there are quite a few preachers and church ministers that are sex fiends and conmen)that they cant be rational.whatever the arguments for and against and whatever we say or do will not stop people being gay.The one thing that should happen though is that it should be kept in the privacy of the home and not on the streets in public.

Posted By: I fa common sense On: 3/29/2010

Title: Until such time.....

@Voltaire, in response to your post 2 or 3 posts ago, homosexuality is not a species and nature might intend for homosexuality to exist in varying forms amongst all us animals. When, nature determines that boongying is going to be a form in mankind then the boongy will produce lubricant or adjust to comfortably accept constant prodding. Whatever the purpose of homosexuality in other species, or even human, we have determined what the structure of our recognized human family will be. Until such time as the MAJORITY OF BAHAMIANS determine to change that so be it! They may decide to change it to recognize boongy bandits, polygamous marriage or even allow me to marry my palm...but until such time the cry remains the same NO MARRIAGE FOR BOONGY BANDITS!

Posted By: I fa common sense On: 3/29/2010

Title: What nonsense..."no matter how singular or alienated"

@Voltaire, looked at the link, nice quote you placed there, but one that if followed would lead to anarchy! Example, I want the right to masturbate in public, I like to masturbate! I want the right to walk downtown naked, I'm a nudist at heart! I want the right to make love to my wife, on the top of my car at the intersection of Bay and East St., I'm a freaky exhibitionist! Protect and fight for my right...please! "No matter how singular or alienated!" Following that nonsense, welcome to polygamy, marriage for boongy bandits, nudism, beastiality, adult incest(I still think one of my aunts sexy). If you truly believe your posted quote, add these to your list of causes to champion!

Posted By: Voltaire On: 3/29/2010

Title:

Common sense: "....Democracy therefore requires minority rights equally as it does majority rule. Indeed, as democracy is conceived today, the minority's rights must be protected no matter how singular or alienated that minority is from the majority society; otherwise, the majority's rights lose their meaning."
See the link here: http://www.democracyweb.org/majority/principles.php

Posted By: I fa common sense On: 3/29/2010

Title: Until later

@ Voltaire, lobby on brother! I gern ta sleep, before my wife think I talkin to sweetheart!
MAJORITY RULE! NO MARRIAGE for BOONGY BANDITS! AHHH... DEMOCRACY!

Posted By: To God be the Glory On: 3/29/2010

Title: Watch God

Hebrews 4:12 (King James Version)
12For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Wisdom of this world:
"For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
18For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
19For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
20Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
21For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
22For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
25Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
26For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
27But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
29That no flesh should glory in his presence.
30But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
31That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord." 1 Corinthians 1:17-31

18For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
19For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
20Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
21For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
22For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
25Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
26For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
27But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
29That no flesh should glory in his presence.
30But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
31That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord." 1 Corinthians 1:17-31
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Posted By: I fa common sense On: 3/29/2010

Title: Here's a repost

@ Voltaire, do you know how many Christians have labeled me heathen for saying animals engage in homosexuality? I have always held that view! You know how many Christians have labeled me heathen for saying sodomy is pleasurable? I have always held that view! That is why I say you may be surprised at how much you and I agree on. In regards to the word "natural", my definition of the word is, as nature intended! I don't think nature intended for a man to plow another man's posterior! Maybe we have different understandings of the word natural!

Posted By: I fa common sense On: 3/29/2010

Title: What is the definition of democracy?

@Voltaire, yall have a strange concept of democracy! The good people of the Bahamas say NO SAME SEX MARRIAGE and this is mob rule! The Federal Government of the USA doesn't support same sex marriage I guess that's mob rule too. The government of Japan doesn't support same sex marriage, I guess that's mob rule too. You see what I mean by yall reasoning and judgment, SKEWED, TWISTED! Democracy- one man, one vote, MAJORITY RULE! That's what I thought democracy was about!

Posted By: Voltaire On: 3/29/2010

Title:

Just read your last post. You cannot just continue to ignore the points that you don't have an answer for. As to your preposterous 'lubricant' theory, I already explained that adaptation is different to evolution, although both are NATURAL processes. Perhaps you should buy a textbook on the subject, if you are gonna argue about it. Your anus/penis fixation is a question of physical evolution. This takes a long time to happen, but many species adapt to a new situation without changing physically. This is vital to survival and a perfectly natural process. Homosexuality has been shown to have an important socializing influence on communities of many species of animals. Textbook adaptation, perfectly natural.

Posted By: Voltaire On: 3/29/2010

Title:

Common Sense - again, that is nonsense. First of all you and I are not expressing contrary beliefs - that is an easy thing to hide behind when you run out of arguments, because a belief never has to be proven or explained.
What we WERE doing, as you said yourself, was having a logical argument. Logically speaking, then, if you believe that everything which happens reflects the intentions of nature, then both the extinction of species like the dinosaurs AND homosexuality are "meant to be". If it wasn't meant to be, by your own log ic, the phenomenon of gayness would not exist in any species, much less 1,500. Obviously, nature intends it, right?
But because we are having a logical discussion and not expressing meaningless beliefs, if you introduce something like your "belief that nature provides for what it intends" then you need to qualify that. Who do you think is directing nature to do this? Is it God, or do you believe like some primitive tribes, that nature itself has a personality. Also, why do you bring the issue back again and again, to reproduction ("0 produced by man and man!") ?? If you are not religious, then there is no reason to use it as the benchmark of what is normal behaviour. Many things are natural besides reproduction, and many people are born without the ability to have children - should they be banned from having sex? I suppose you will argue 'survival of the species' but it has been shown that in many species, homosexuality plays an important socializing role equal to and sometimes more important to the ability to reproduce in large numbers.
One last thing, after your rant about the behavior of your dogs and cats, why are you again on the side of nature, when just a little while ago, you were against it?
These are all unexplained, seemingly illogical and contradictory elements of your argument, and until you explain them, saying you believe that nature provides what it intends is meaningless. I might as well say I believe people are gay because a fuzzy pink alien put microchips in their brains when they are in the womb. Its just words, nonsense, foolishness, and has no place in a logical debate.

But because we are having a logical discussion and not expressing meaningless beliefs, if you introduce something like your "belief that nature provides for what it intends" then you need to qualify that. Who do you think is directing nature to do this? Is it God, or do you believe like some primitive tribes, that nature itself has a personality. Also, why do you bring the issue back again and again, to reproduction ("0 produced by man and man!") ?? If you are not religious, then there is no reason to use it as the benchmark of what is normal behaviour. Many things are natural besides reproduction, and many people are born without the ability to have children - should they be banned from having sex? I suppose you will argue 'survival of the species' but it has been shown that in many species, homosexuality plays an important socializing role equal to and sometimes more important to the ability to reproduce in large numbers.
One last thing, after your rant about the behavior of your dogs and cats, why are you again on the side of nature, when just a little while ago, you were against it?
These are all unexplained, seemingly illogical and contradictory elements of your argument, and until you explain them, saying you believe that nature provides what it intends is meaningless. I might as well say I believe people are gay because a fuzzy pink alien put microchips in their brains when they are in the womb. Its just words, nonsense, foolishness, and has no place in a logical debate." />

Posted By: I fa common sense On: 3/29/2010

Title: SOON...maybe.

@ Voltaire, everything that 's suppose to happen in nature, happens naturally, when nature is ready for two men to be mummy and daddy rest assured nature will find a way, men will evolve. What nature calls for it provides for! Men have evolved and continue to evlolve, who knows, maybe someday the boongy will produce a pleasant lubricant. Who knows, maybe on our path of evolution, men may start being born with wombs. Until then nature aint ready for it yet! NO MARRIAGE FOR BOONGY BANDITS

Posted By: I fa common sense On: 3/29/2010

Title: NOONE LIKES DECEIT!!!

@ Voltaire, learning probably chose the list because on 3/27/2010 your good buddy, Folly, made an attempt to be deceitful. Probably because he really thought I was ignorant as you two so like to call me! AND that attempt will be acknowledge by all logical, and as learning says, reasonable people to be an attempt to mislead and be deceitful! Something for which your good buddy refuses to apologize!

Posted By: I fa common sense On: 3/28/2010

Title: What nature calls for it provides for!

@ Voltaire, maybe it was nature intention that the dinosaurs become extinct! I don't know about the dodo bird's wings and nature! I repeat my belief, you continue repeating yours. What nature calls for it provides for, when nature is ready for two men to become mummy and daddy, then we will see a difference in the number. Until then, 6,500,000,000 offspring produced by opposite sex walking this planet, 0...I repeat 0, produced by man and man! Nature aint ready for that yet! I'm waiting on nature! NO FAMILY RIGHTS FOR BOONGY BANDITS

Posted By: Voltaire On: 3/28/2010

Title:

@ learning - fair enough, although I honestly don't see how. Tell me something though, what do you think about Common Sense objecting to gay marriage on the basis of that it goes against nature, then changing his story to say we shouldn't follow nature later on? How about his insistence that nature has a purpose, but he don't know what it is? Or his inaccurate reduction of modern democracy to mob rule? Or any of the other inaccuracies, contradictions and inconsistencies in his argument. Just wondering why you chose the list to comment on, thats all.

Posted By: Voltaire On: 3/28/2010

Title:

Nature intends what it provides for.... why do you believe that??? On what basis? Is there any evidence for it? Whether you call yourself Christian or not, you are making a religious argument here; what is known as a teleological argument. Its the same as saying "Everything that happens is supposed to happen".
Biologically speaking, there are no 'intentions' - there are only better or worse adaptations to the conditions that exist (conditions which change all the time). Some species succeed, some fail. Think about it, if nature provided for what was intended, then why did it make the Dodo's wings too small? Why did it not make the dinosaurs immune to whatever killed them? How do you know that the particular penis / anus structures that you seem so concerned about did not evolve at a time when conditions did not dictate the need for homosexuality, but now we have merely adapted to new, changed conditions successfully?
One last question, if nature has an intention, who is doing the intending?

Posted By: learning On: 3/28/2010

Title: keepit up

To all, I followed the discusion, and read the quote, and i think common sense is right. it does appear that a try was made to link civil union with that list. i think any reasonable person would come to that decision. I am enjoying this discusion.

Posted By: I fa common sense On: 3/28/2010

Title:

@ Voltaire, one thing I believe, whatever, nature intends it provides for! No lubricant in the boongy buddy, I don't think there's any intention by nature for a object to be rammed repeatedly up there! I mean, like I say, I only have common sens!

Posted By: I fa common sense On: 3/28/2010

Title:

@ Voltaire, I shouldn't have posted that thing about scat! Now all you good decent people goin to look that up! Sorry!

Posted By: Voltaire On: 3/28/2010

Title:

Wow, seriously - that last post was the most ignorant piece of foolishness i have heard yet. You dont know what nature's intention is, you actually admit that, but you think it has something to do with what looks like it fits where?? This intention you believe in but can't identify for the life of you... it has nothing to do with survival, social cohesion, population control, violence management, the development of the individual, efficient parenting - in short all the things the research has identified in animals ... but instead has to do with LUBRICATION?? Are you serious???
Ok im done for the day. ... I cant take anymore.

Posted By: I fa common sense On: 3/28/2010

Title:

@Voltaire, I also stumbled upon some SCAT porn! Some people really do like playing with dat boongy lubricant! The things people do for pleasure!

Posted By: Voltaire On: 3/28/2010

Title:

No, you wont be defending democracy, because mob rule is not democracy.

Posted By: I fa common sense On: 3/28/2010

Title:

@ Voltaire, I may not know nature's intention, but after carefully analyzing penis and buttocks there's nothing to lead me to believe that nature intend for a man's penis to go in another man's boongy. NO LUBRICATION, JUST DRY FRICTION! Tell two homos that you know to repeatedly have sex without lubrication. Also suggest to them a good doctor, because they will need it thereafter. After all da porn I done watch I no ain no lubrication back there. What nature calls for it provides for! Only one source of lubrication comes out the buttocks naturally, play with it sometime!

Posted By: Voltaire On: 3/28/2010

Title:

No, it wouldn't necessitate that all heterosexuals stop procreating. Remember, there is no guarantee that a species will be successful in its survival attempts, so the assumptions behind your question are misplaced. At the same time, species which are successful have been shown to use homosexuality and/or a decrease in fertility in females to deal with over-population. In these cases, one or the other or both methods have done the trick - see? Perfectly natural!
Face it, you don't have a "nature-based" argument. I know you don't because it doesn't exist and so you couldn't possibly have one. They used to argue that around the same time that they used to say the brain of a negro weighs less than that of a white man, as a justification for slavery. Both arguments, and a host of others like them which were used to justify discrimination, where thoroughly debunked long ago. At the same time, you dont have a religious argument.... so what you gat?

Posted By: I fa common sense On: 3/28/2010

Title: Man I gone, da wife gettin mad

@ Mr. Folly, THE FIGHTER FOR ENLIGHTENED DEMOCRACY, has a problem with democracy? NO! Say it ain't so! PLEASE SUPPORT OUR DEMOCRACY. THE MAJORITY HAS SPOKEN. NO MARRIAGE FOR BOONGY BANDITS! Keep it up though yall may soon get some more converts. REMEMBER, When yall get the law change I will still be defending and respecting democracy. NOT, only when it suits me!

Posted By: Voltaire On: 3/28/2010

Title:

Common Sense, don't duck out: since you believe nature has a non-religious intention, it is for YOU to explain what that intention is. If you don't know, then how could you know that gay marriage contravenes that intention???
Following the crowd is actually NOT how modern democracy works - it is about protecting the rights of minorities and individuals, but it is nice to know you would have been a Nazi or a slave driver if time and place allowed. That just goes to show why no one should listen to you.
My friend, you are digging yourself into a hole - you have gone from being the hero of all the people you claimed were following this thread to a crowd follower with no morals of his own. No wonder they have ceased to defend you. Better get out while you can, before you embarrass yourself further.

Posted By: I fa common sense On: 3/28/2010

Title:

@Voltaire, your statement about homosexuality as a means of population control.

Posted By: Erasmus Folly On: 3/28/2010

Title: @Common Nonsense

By your 'standards', the abolition of slavery was a mistake, the Civil War was a mistake, Civil Rights was a mistake, and the Chinese and Indians should rule the world, since they are the majority. Your ignorance is laughable at this stage.

Posted By: I fa common sense On: 3/28/2010

Title: DEMOCRACY RULES!

@ Voltaire, okay so everything is adrift. There is no intent in anything. WOW!
YES! I FOLLOW THE CROWD, THAT'S DEMOCRACY! THE MAJORITY CREATES RULES AND THE MINORITY FOLLOW THE RULES THE MAJORITY CREATES! SO, SEE, IF YA'LL GET YALL WAY I WILL FOLLOW THOSE RULES ALSO! UNTIL THEN , NO MARRIAGE FOR BOONGY BANDITS!
You know, I thank you guys for the debate! My wife is home now, and she's looking for some sweet love. Talking to you denied me my porn warm up. Ahh, until later

Posted By: Voltaire On: 3/28/2010

Title:

Huh? Which proposition are you referring to?
Also on your "THE MAJORITY RULES! THIS IS HOW ENLIGHTENED DEMOCRACIES OPERATE!" - you couldn't be more dead wrong. There is a little concept known as the Tyranny of the Majority. Look it up, you will learn something, including that the basis of enlightened democratic society is opposition to the kind of mob rule you describe.

Posted By: I fa common sense On: 3/28/2010

Title: So... we have come full circle!

@ Folly,The majority of the BAHAMIAN PEOPLE like OPPOSITE SEX marriage!
The majority of the BAHAMIAN PEOPLE dislike SAME SEX marriage!
THE MAJORITY RULES! THIS IS HOW ENLIGHTENED DEMOCRACIES OPERATE!
@ Voltaire, that proposition only holds water if the majority of heterosexuals then stop having sex and procreating.

Posted By: Voltaire On: 3/28/2010

Title:

Umm - i can't answer your question because I dont believe nature has ANY intention. If you do, and it is a non-religious intention, you have to explain what you think this is.

Posted By: Voltaire On: 3/28/2010

Title:

Common Sense, that is a non-argument. You can't say you are against something because every society decides its rules and that is what we have now. If you lived 200 years ago would you be defending burning people at the stake, religious persecution, oh and the enslavement of Africans?? Let me get this straight.. you have no views or beliefs at all; you just oppose things because they go against the rules established by a society? I guess you were a fan of segregation too then. And if you DO believe this silly argument, then WHY did you start talking about unnaturalness? You ain't said nothing before about the rules of society?

Posted By: I fa common sense On: 3/28/2010

Title: Your argument losing ground bro

@Voltaire, question, do you really think nature intended for man to boongy man!
I told you before don't come at me with christian or religious references. I am a big heathen as a matter of fact talking with you guys has distracted me from my porn. I like to watch a lil "trans" action too!

Posted By: Voltaire On: 3/28/2010

Title:

PS when i say societies, i mean communities of animals, not people, but it is something worth thinking about; many scientists believe we have already been too "successful" for our own good. Six billion people is more than this planet can handle, and we are on course for 9 billion within 50 years. Because population has increased faster than available resources, we now have more poverty than at any time in recorded human history. Maybe homosexuality is a necessary curb on our ability to breed like a virus.

Posted By: erasmus folly On: 3/28/2010

Title: QED

Yes, you do.
Yours is the ignorant position and Voltaire's is real knowledge. Your 'likes' and 'dislikes', which are subjective, do not define in any substantive sense what 'nature' objectively is. Therein lies the error of your logic or thinking. It is precisely because different people have different subjective interpretations that an 'ideal' society is a rights based society that upholds freedom and balances it with the rule of law. Your view is that of the vulgar, the herd, the mob and you really on the 'emotive', 'primitive' and 'subjective' pathology of others to support your view. That is unreason in a nut shell and is the anti-thesis of a freedom loving human being's 'natural' position. That requires a little thought and you have shown that to be a challenging task for someone of your persuasion. I commend your open mindedness on religion, but I cannot respect a subjective and unfounded primitive hatred of gays. I rest my case.

Posted By: I fa common sense On: 3/28/2010

Title: It's quite simple really

@Voltaire, my objection to gay marriage is
1) All societies create rules and laws as to how they are going to develop, and which rights they are going to uphold. Personally I don't think gay marriage is of any substance. Just because you find pleasure in a thing doesn't mean you should try and legitimize it. What will we be legitimizing next.
2) Presently the good people of the Bahamas are against it, and if they decide at some point to allow it, I will respect their wishes. Until then NO MARRIAGE FOR BOONGY BANDITS!

Posted By: Voltaire On: 3/28/2010

Title:

Well there are only two definitions of nature - religious and secular. If it is religious than nature "intends" whatever your particular God says it does. If the definition is secular, then nature doesn't have ANY intention - it is a neutral set of conditions in which species either survive through adaptation or die out. As we (and a number of other 'gay' species) have survived thus far, shouldn't accept that lifelong gay relationships in a certain percentage of some species is a useful tool for survival? As the research makes clear, it is often used as a tool of strengthening social bonds and avoiding violence. What is the problem with that?
An important distinction: the idea that "as nature intended" refers to reproduction is a religious idea. Its the whole "Be fruitful and multiply" thing. In biological terms, balance it the key thing, not unlimited procreation. A species that breeds too much ends up stretching its resources too thin and eventually dying out. Homosexuality has been shown to be a necessary outlet in many societies, to stop them multiplying too much.

Posted By: I fa common sense On: 3/28/2010

Title: Check an English teacher bro!

@Voltaire, I haven't been caught in anything bro! I said let's move on because it was obvious that Mr Folly, will not admit his attempt to deceive on 3/27/2010. You guys take that quote and go to any english teacher or journalist and tell me what their thought would be as to the message trying to be relayed!

Posted By: I fa common sense On: 3/28/2010

Title: I don't switch, and I don't deceive

@ Voltaire, do you know how many Christians have labelled me heathen for saying animals engage in homosexuality? I have always held that view! You know how many Christians have labeled me heathen for saying sodomy is pleasurable? I have always held that view! That is why I say you may be surprised at how much you and I agree on. In regards to the word "natural", my definition of the word is, as nature intended! I don't think nature intended for a man to plow another man's posterior! Maybe we have different understandings of the word natural!

Posted By: Voltaire On: 3/28/2010

Title:

2. should read "If your objection..."

Posted By: Voltaire On: 3/28/2010

Title:

Lets leave it for now??? No sir. You are saying that because again, you get catch. I want an answer to two questions:
1. If your objection to gay marriage is not that it is unnatural as you claimed, that what is your problem with it?
2. If you objection to gay marriage is not that it is unnatural, then why did you lie and claim it was?

Posted By: Voltaire On: 3/28/2010

Title:

Common Sense, you better come up with something good or I will stop wasting my time. So far you have said you have no religious objection to gay marriage, now you are not objecting on because of its "unnaturalness", because you have suddenly decided you are not a fan of nature, and you JUST remembered what you saw your dogs and cats do. But how about this:"Treat people like people, yes but dont say homos or lesbians are normal in their sexuality since what they are doing is UNNATURAL! U dont have to be a Genius, scientist paid off by gay/lesbian special interests groups, to SEE that!"
Yessir - that is your own earlier, hate filled ignorant rant. I DENOUNCE YOU AS A HYPOCRITE and intellectual mercenary who has no other reason to dislike gay people but hate and fear and will adopt any argument against them without really believing in it. AND you have the gall to lecture others about honesty and integrity. Shame shame shame.

Posted By: I fa common sense On: 3/28/2010

Title: We ga wait on the U.S. Government

@Voltaire, hey you back!
@ Folly, man you won't apologize for your attempt at deceit on 3/27/2010! I am a big man, I told you thanks for the reference!
Now, let's leave the list for a minute, WHEN POLAND, ITALY, AUSTRALIA, JAPAN and last but not least THE GREAT GOVERNMENT OF THE U.S.A. decide to recognize same sex marriage or civil union then I'll think about the Bahamas doing the same! I won't mention all the other countries. Until then, NO MARRIAGE FOR BOONGY BANDITS!

Posted By: Voltaire On: 3/28/2010

Title:

It seems to me you will change your principles whenever necessary - Christianity, "naturalness", etc - in order try and win the argument. THAT is deceit and you should apologize.

Posted By: Voltaire On: 3/28/2010

Title:

And while we are on the subject of deceit - i find it very disingenuous that since it has now been shown that an array of animals engage in exclusive homosexual relationships, all of a sudden you say we shouldn't base our sexual standards on nature. No one but YOU ever brought up nature. You said that your reason for opposing homosexuality was it is "unnatural" and we should follow nature. Now that you know gayness is natural, you are saying we should reject nature cuz it will lead to sex with minors. Soooo if it isn't the unnaturalness of gayness that you have a problem with, what IS your problem with gay marriage??

Posted By: Voltaire On: 3/28/2010

Title:

Buddy - up till now YOU were the apostle of nature - read my last post.

Posted By: I fa common sense On: 3/28/2010

Title: Let's follow the other animals!

@Voltaire, guess what else I saw my dogs do...eat s@!T! Let's emulate the other animals!

Posted By: Voltaire On: 3/28/2010

Title:

Common Sense - seriously, if you cannot accept that you are grasping at straws with this list thing and that you either mistakenly or intentionally assumed that two very separate statements were connected - when they were not - then there is no point in continuing. You are now arguing for the sake of arguing and its silly. It is obvious to anyone with sense that I can say the Bahamas has a constitutional obligation to give gay people civil unions, and then later say we need to join a list of countries which support gay rights. That in no way suggests that the nations on the list have legalized gay marriage. That was your assumption, and by now it is clear that you are trying to distract from the embarrassment of being shown a list you insisted didn't exist. Come on.

Posted By: erasmus folly On: 3/28/2010

Title: Article 6 of the draft legislation of the UN declaration reads:

We condemn the human rights violations based on sexual orientation or gender identity wherever they occur, in particular the use of the death penalty on this ground, extrajudicial, summary or arbitrary executions, the practice of torture and other cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment or punishment, arbitrary arrest or detention and deprivation of economic, social and cultural rights, including the right to health.
Now, I don't know about you, social, economic, political and cultural rights would imply to me that some form of 'civil union' must be incorporated into the law to guarantee that there is no prejudice before the law due merely to a person's sexual orientation to another adult human. Perhaps my grasp of reason and logic is off, but I leave that to the readers to decide. Your opinion on the matter means little to me since you happily abused the rights of your fellow human beings by belittling them with your homophobic blasts of 'boongy bandits' etc. I hope Bahamians choose the real way of Christ, love and forgiveness as enshriend in the UN draft legislation, rather than the path of the real Satan, ignorance, hate, prejudism and fear. The choice of which group of countires we side with this on is an important choice. It will reveal whether we are a people that truly believes in, cherishes and loves the democratic freedoms our predecessors wisely enshrined while improving and growing to more perfect this commonwealth.

Posted By: I fa common sense On: 3/28/2010

Title: I RESPECT HONESTY

@Mr Folly after you earlier posted your reference, I had no problem with your list! I know of all these agreements! My problem was with you trying to mislead people on the 3/27/2010 by saying that our country had to grant civil unions and this would put us on " the list" that you posted as a list of " enlightened democracies"! Well, a bunch of countries on that list DO NOT recognize civil unions or same sex marriage! SO WHAT ARE YOU SAYING MY BROTHER?!

Posted By: I fa common sense On: 3/28/2010

Title: GET FROM HERE!

Having been exposed as deceitful, and resting his lost case, my bud, Mr. Folly has now resorted to singing!
IT'S NEVER TOO LATE TO DO THE RIGHT THING, APOLOGIZE to these people you tried to mislead on 3/27/2010! BE A BIG MAN, YOU ARE A MAN, RIGHT?

Posted By: Erasmus Folly On: 3/28/2010

Title: further proof of USA and Bahamas signatory of gender and sexual orientation rights, despite current hypcrisy in not being the law of the land in either country completely.

In 2008, the 34 member countries of the Organization of American States unanimously approved a declaration affirming that human rights protections extend to sexual orientation and gender identity. Both Jamaica and Trinidad cosigned as well.

Posted By: Erasmus Folly On: 3/28/2010

Title: Truth vs Confusion

No it doesn't in the slightest and I will not apologize. Reread what I wrote, they are two separate references. Your inability to comprehend that is not my problem. You also accused me of falsely presenting the US gov's position on the UN rights declaration. Here is my proof of the US position. In the internet age, misleading statements are easily disproved. Learn that. www.state.gov/r/pa/prs/ps/2009/03/120509.htm

Posted By: I fa common sense On: 3/28/2010

Title: I in dis for the long haul!

@ Mr Folly, be a big man and APOLOGIZE! That quote I posted clearly reveals you were being misleading by trying to tie in civil unions as a requirement to be on "the list". THANK YOU for posting the reference!
Ask some of your educated, non-homosexual friends to read that quote and see if they don't say the same thing! THE TRUTH SHALL SET YOU FREE!

Posted By: Erasmus John Lennon Folly On: 3/28/2010

Title: Imagine

Imagine there's no heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today...
Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace...
You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be as one
Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world...
You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will live as one

Posted By: I fa common sense On: 3/28/2010

Title: LET'S IMITATE THE ANIMALS!!!

@Voltaire, having read that link here's what I come away with, some birds exhibit strong homosexual partnerships, AND dwarf chimpanzees have family orgies. Using these animals as measuring sticks, I would then say yes to civil unions, AND yes to family orgies, which apparently also includes sex with minors. The whole family!
WOW, I hope we don't base our decisions on these kinds of findings!
I had some dogs and cats when I was growing up. MAN, it was a free for all! They would have sex with, brother, sister, aunt etc. I wish we could have done that! A couple of my aunts are really sexy!

Posted By: Erasmus Folly On: 3/28/2010

Title: Let It Be

Nothing I posted is decietful. You are disingenuous to accuse me of such.
You are the only one shouting a campaign of hate here. Who is moral? Who is spiritual? Really? I rest my case. Your all too sadly 'common nonsense' has crucified your own positions. Preach love, not hate. As John Lennon and Paul McCartney sang, Let it be! Just Imagine!

Posted By: I fa common sense On: 3/28/2010

Title: DECEITFUL...APOLOGISE!

@Mr Folly, thanks for posting the reference for the list. Now we could see what the list is really about and not what YOU PURPORTED it to be! The list has NOTHING to do with civil unions or marriage for boongy bandits!
In future continue to place references with your lists. You have proven to be deceitful!

Posted By: I fa common sense On: 3/28/2010

Title: Where the DECEIT BEGAN...Erasmus Folly 3/27/2010

@Voltaire & Folly,"I am pointing out that for the Bahamas to actually deliver on its Constitutional obligation of guaranteeing all of its citizens freedom of religion (including freedom FROM religion) and equal rights, it must allow for gay 'civil unions' and thus 'gay rights'. That would guarantee that every man, woman and child in the Bahamas has the full rights afforded to them under the Constitution and that the law doesn't prejudice according to race, ethnicity, sex or gender against any Bahamian in their own land. That is what I am referring to - this democracy growing up and completing and perfecting its democratic character and joining the list of 'enlightened' and 'advanced' democracies in the world.

Posted By: Erasmus Folly On: 3/28/2010

Title: More info

plato.stanford.edu/entries/homosexuality/
Other intelligent links from the 'fools' at Stanford University.

Posted By: Erasmus Folly On: 3/28/2010

Title: Another 'fool' by common nonsenses standards.

?Homosexuality, is regarded as shameful by barbarians and by those who live under despotic governments just as philosophy is regarded as shameful by them, because it is apparently not in the interest of such rulers to have great ideas engendered in their subjects, or powerful friendships or passionate love-all of which homosexuality is particularly apt to produce."?
??Plato quotes (Ancient Greek Philosopher He was the world's most influential philosopher. 428 BC-348 BC)

Posted By: erasmus folly On: 3/28/2010

Title: sounds like bethel's message above, no?

?Let him who is without sin cast the first stone.?
?Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.?
Jesus of Nazareth

Posted By: I fa common sense On: 3/28/2010

Title: Thanks for the info

@ Voltaire, just finished looking at the duck link. I accept that for now so that I can respond to you. I am a man of research, I'll look into that further.

Posted By: erasmus folly On: 3/28/2010

Title: homophobia

Think on this when you cling to homophobia!
Holding on to anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned.
Buddha

Posted By: Voltaire On: 3/28/2010

Title:

OK well listen, I have to run but I'll check back in a bit.
You know what would be interesting? If an actual gay person (I'm really not one) would come on here (anonymously of course) and tell us if he/she feels discriminated against in the Bahamas, and in what way.

Posted By: erasmus folly On: 3/28/2010

Title: Another of history's 'fools' I suppose, by common nonsense's standards

Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.
?Martin Luther King Jr., Strength to Love, 1963

Posted By: I fa common sense On: 3/28/2010

Title: Still looking

@Voltaire, I didn't get around to all of them. I'm trying to talk to you the same time. I will look into this bird link that you post and get back to you on that.

Posted By: Voltaire On: 3/28/2010

Title:

Not aimed at you Common Sense - we done know you are not a Christian. Just in case any Bible thumping hypocrites who want to replace Christ's message of love and acceptance with fire and brimstone are still handing around.

Posted By: Voltaire On: 3/28/2010

Title:

Well for one thing, we could make hate speech and the encouragement of violence against gays illegal. But it is not just about passing laws - for one thing we could sign resolutions such as the one mentioned by Folly.
How do we discriminate? Are you kidding? I don't know where to begin. In schools, in the workplace, in public. When a member of a minority group is humiliated, attacked, verbally abused, passed over for a job, treated differently from his peers, etc, it is called discrimination.

Posted By: I fa common sense On: 3/28/2010

Title: Folly you still here?

@ Voltaire & Folly, what's the relevance of these Christ, Christian references?

Posted By: Voltaire On: 3/28/2010

Title:

Ummm Common Sense ... each of those links gives examples of animals which enter into EXCLUSIVE same sex relationships. Let me post one of them again with some emphasis, so you dont miss it this time:
"Animals that live a COMPLETELY homosexual life can also be found. This occurs especially among birds that will pair with one partner for LIFE, which is the case with geese and ducks. Four to five percent of the couples are homosexual. Single females will lay eggs in a homosexual pair's nest. It has been observced that the HOMOSEXUAL COUPLE are often better at raising the young than heterosexual couples.
When you see a colony of black-headed gulls, you can be sure that almost every tenth pair is LESBIAN. The females have no problems with being impregnated, although, according to Petter Boeckman they cannot be defined as bisexual."

Posted By: I fa common sense On: 3/28/2010

Title: I think I'm missing something

@ Voltaire, which other laws you want passed to protect them? How do we discriminate in this country?

Posted By: Voltaire On: 3/28/2010

Title:

Nice Folly, I like it!
How about Mark Twain: "If Christ were here now there is one thing he would not be - a Christian."
Or Ambrose Bierce, who defined a Christian as one "who follows the teachings of Christ insofar as they are not inconsistent with a life of sin."
I guess most Christians are too busy railing against sinners and denouncing heathens to ask 'What would Jesus do?' That bit about casting the first stone seems to have gone completely out the window.

Posted By: I fa common sense On: 3/28/2010

Title: Still looking

@Voltaire, you send me all these links, I told you I AGREE that there is homosexual behavior in animals. I said tell me the animal that turns their back completely on the opposite sex, and you send me something about two penguins in a zoo!

Posted By: Voltaire On: 3/28/2010

Title:

No no no, see, there you go again. No one but YOU agreed that the Bahamas has done enough in decriminalizing sodomy. When it comes to groups who have been discriminated against, it is not enough to decriminalize, we must pass laws which actively protect them. Also, we must sign as many resolutions as possible, like the one Folly referred to, which we have not signed, in order to declare to the world that we do not discriminate. This is the only way to begin changing the climate of prejudice and hatred inside a country. Gay marriage is one issue in this debate, but not the only one. What you have been doing here is setting your own terms, which we don't agree with, and then using those terms to brand us liars.

Posted By: Erasmus Folly On: 3/28/2010

Title: Another 'fool' I guess...

I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.
Mohandas Gandhi

Posted By: I fa common sense On: 3/28/2010

Title: DECEITFUL I TELL YA!

@Voltaire, If there's no intent on deceit involved, then there's no point asking which list we want to be on! The Bahamas has already met the listed requirements that the U.N. requires. He was presenting this list as a list of advanced, enlightened democracies that have somehow done something that the Bahamas hasn't! My mantra has been just one NO MARRIAGE for BOONGY BANDITS. They are free to boongy all they want, no interference, NO MARRIAGE for BOONGY BANDITS

Posted By: Voltaire On: 3/28/2010

Title:

Yeah Folly I already posted that. He is no longer arguing that the list is fake, only that it was not what it was purported to be - apparently you somehow made it seem that it was a list of countries where gay marriage was legal. Mind you, you must have accomplished this telepathically, as it is nowhere in the record of this conversation.

Posted By: erasmus folly On: 3/28/2010

Title: for common nonsense

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UN_declaration_on_sexual_orientation_and_gender_identity

Posted By: Voltaire On: 3/28/2010

Title:

And what my gay life partner penguins and ducks and geese? No comment huh?

Posted By: Voltaire On: 3/28/2010

Title:

Ummm, as I already pointed out, he never said it was a list of countries that supported gay marriage - YOU did. You set up a house of cards so you could knock it down (or you merely misunderstood in the first place). Its ok to admit you were wrong - everybody reading already knows.

Posted By: i fa common sense On: 3/28/2010

Title: DECEITFUL I TELL YA! APOLOGISE!

@Voltaire, the list that Folly is referring to is not what he purported it to be. This is not a list of countries that support marriage for gays or civil unions! What this is, is a list of countries that have decriminalized sodomy and removed other forms of prejudice against Boongy bandits. The Bahamas has already done that. Therefore that makes his repeated asking which list we want to be on redundant. Sorry! He was stating that this is a list of countries that SUPPORT CIVIL UNIONS, WHICH IT ISN'T!

Posted By: Voltaire On: 3/28/2010

Title:

There, I've just given you a bunch of animals who live exclusively homosexual lives. Now what?
And how has Folly been proven a "deceitful liar". He just showed you that the list, which you claimed was made up, is an actual list of countries signed on to a UN resolution. He is right and you are wrong. Its there in black and white. You should apologize now for all the people whose time you have wasted.
PS. Lets here from all those people who were keeping silent because you were doing such a good job in this argument. What do they think now? Haha.

Posted By: Voltaire On: 3/28/2010

Title:

Or how bout this (link below): "Animals that live a completely homosexual life can also be found. This occurs especially among birds that will pair with one partner for life, which is the case with geese and ducks. Four to five percent of the couples are homosexual. Single females will lay eggs in a homosexual pair's nest. It has been observced that the homosexual couple are often better at raising the young than heterosexual couples.
When you see a colony of black-headed gulls, you can be sure that almost every tenth pair is lesbian. The females have no problems with being impregnated, although, according to Petter Boeckman they cannot be defined as bisexual."
http://74.125.93.132/search?q=cache:a1eO5t6t3WMJ:www.news-medical.net/news/2006/10/23/20718.aspx+animal+homosexual+for+life&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=bs&client=firefox-a

Posted By: I fa common sense On: 3/28/2010

Title: RUN FOLLY RUN

@Mr Folly, having been shown to be a deceitful liar, he has broken off running!

Posted By: Voltaire On: 3/28/2010

Title:

But this has to be the best: life partners! Hahaha
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2004/02/07/MNG3N4RAV41.DTL

Posted By: Voltaire On: 3/28/2010

Title:

This is interesting too: "homosexuality is a basic primate pattern not exclusive to man" Muddo.
http://www.springerlink.com/content/p4021223452r617q/

Posted By: Voltaire On: 3/28/2010

Title:

Try this:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/science-news/3305514/Lesbian-Japanese-monkeys-challenge-Darwins-assumptions.html

Posted By: I fa common sense On: 3/28/2010

Title: Part 2

@ Voltaire, You may be surprised at how much you and I agree, that is why I don't know what you're talking about demolishing arguments!
I agree there is homosexual activity in the animal kingdom.I have already said that! Animals are pleasure driven. Wherever they get it they repeat. However there is no species of animal, where the male having received pleasure from a male, then turns their back completely on the opposite sex.Tell me the animal that does, let me research it. This is only a concoction in the minds of demented humans. Like I told you buddy, I can understand and support the right of homos to boongy! It is pleasurable, it feels good, but I don't see how that pleasure then translates to a right to marriage.

Posted By: Voltaire On: 3/28/2010

Title:

Common Sense - see the 'list of lies' here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UN_declaration_on_sexual_orientation_and_gender_identity
Turns out it is true. Sorry you wasted so much of your time.

Posted By: Voltaire On: 3/28/2010

Title:

Yeah well, he responded - the UN is the creator of your "list of lies". And you still haven't answered me.

Posted By: I fa common sense On: 3/28/2010

Title: Part 1

@ Voltaire, oh so that was the purpose of your manufactured, distorted list! Well it needs some correction! I want to be on the list with,Greece, Poland, the U. S. government, Japan, Australia, etc. But enough of you and I talking about this list, I'll save that for Folly, the creator of the list of lies!

Posted By: erasmus folly On: 3/28/2010

Title:

U.N. Declaration on Human Rights, Sexual Orientation and Gender Identity
Just google the thing or check un.org. Voltaire, good work. I'm done 'debating' this for now. It is all on the internet for any 'real' intellect to read and educate themselves about their petty hate. Think, grow, evolve. This intellectually stagnant backwater needs to grow up. I love my home, but just reading that ignorant drivel depresses me.

Posted By: Voltaire On: 3/28/2010

Title:

sorry
The third to last sentence was supposed to read "Thus, you manufactured the basis of your own argument artificially...."

Posted By: Voltaire On: 3/28/2010

Title:

I ain't making no sense? Perhaps I should write in smaller words. No one ever said Greece and Poland are dictatorships. No one ever said all democracies were on one list supporting gay marriage and only dictatorships were on the other list, opposing gay marriage. What we DID say was that the world's most enlightened democracies are leading the way in enshrining gay rights into law, and that most countries which are refusing to move in this direction are backward and brutal dictatorships. The question was, WHEN the dust settles and most or all democracies HAVE moved in this direction, which group does the Bahamas want to be with? Now, with regard to your request, earlier you argued that you are not a Christian, and therefore the Bible is not the basis for your objection to gay marriage. You said that the reason for your opposition is that it is unnatural. When it was pointed out to you that homosexual behavior is found throughout nature, you said animals do it for pleasure, not marriage. It was then pointed out to you that, actually, scientists and researchers have found that gay behavior in numerous species serves important social functions. In response you said... nothing.
Instead, you decided to pick holes in a list which seemed intended to contain countries which have demonstrated some respect for gay rights, but which YOU, quite arbitrarily, decided was a list of countries where gays can get married. No one ever said it was a list of places where gay marriage was legal - only you. Thus, you manufactured the own basis of your argument artificially. Quite a cheap trick actually. Nevertheless, I would still like a response to my points about your "unnaturalness" argument.
Clear enough for you?

Posted By: I fa common sense On: 3/28/2010

Title: Demolished?

@Voltaire, seriously, you aint makin no sense, I think I have already discredited your stance on the backward dictatorship business. Italy, Greece, Poland, The federal government of The USA cannot by no stretch be referred to as backward dictatorships. Now, moving on, just to recap, state which of my arguments you have demolished.

Posted By: Voltaire On: 3/28/2010

Title:

Ok there is obviously a comprehension problem going on here - no one ever said that EVERY democracy was on one list and ONLY brutal dictatorships are on the next. The world is a little more complicated than that. The question is, that is the direction things are heading, which list does the Bahamas want to be on. Do you deny that this is the way things are heading?

Posted By: Voltaire On: 3/28/2010

Title:

Yes... and again, just now i said: "on the question of gay rights, being in support of it puts you in the camp of the most fair and advanced societies on earth (a club that is growing all the time) and being against it puts you with all the brutal, corrupt dictatorships that managed to make it out of the middle ages somehow". Just for the slow among us... that is the same point as the one you quote below. Listen buddy, at some point are you going to actually address the demolition of your own arguments, which you blatantly sidestepped, or are we going to go round and round with this nonsense? Let me know, so i don't continue to waste my time.

Posted By: I fa common sense On: 3/28/2010

Title: DEBATING 101

Italy, a backward dictator ship? Greece a backward dictatorship? The Federal Government of the USA a backward dictatorship? Debating 101, speak truth, speak fact!

Posted By: I fa common sense On: 3/28/2010

Title: Refresher

@ Voltaire, just refreshing your memory. Send ya boy Folly back, he's a better debater than you are!
Posted By: Voltaire On: 3/26/2010
You see Folly, again and again you ask, and in response they drivel on with nonsense and scripture quotes, but they refuse to answer the question. Which list do they want to be on? – progressive democracy or third world backwater?

Posted By: Voltaire On: 3/28/2010

Title:

My point about not posting the list is that I cannot speak to what exactly it denoted - legal gay marriage, a resolution or draft legislation towards that end, the signing of a UN resolution respecting the rights of gays, etc - that is something you will have to ask Folly.I'm sure he knows exactly what he is talking about. But seriously, regardless of which list a handful of countries are on, do you REALLY not know that the direction advanced democracies are heading is towards marriage or civil union for gays? Seriously?
I HOPE that you are not that ignorant, and you are just harping on about this one point because you are smart enough to realize you don't have anything else. Any way you cut it, it is a fact that on the question of gay rights, being in support of it puts you in the camp of the most fair and advanced societies on earth (a club that is growing all the time) and being against it puts you with all the brutal, corrupt dictatorships that managed to make it out of the middle ages somehow. It is also a fact that homosexual behavior has been observed in countless species of animal, all over the world, often used as a method of maintaining social coheasion. The point is, your arguments are crap and where Poland fits on a list ain't gonna change that. Simple as that I'm afraid.

Posted By: I fa common sense On: 3/28/2010

Title: DUMB BAHAMIAN ME

@ Voltaire, that word should be *APOLOGISE*
I know yall tink, all Bahamian dumb an ya cud say anyting, an dey ga believe it!
BUT, not just BOONGY BANDITS and their sympathizers have sense ya know!

Posted By: I fa common sense On: 3/28/2010

Title: LIARS and DECEIVERS! APOLODISE!

@ Voltaire, you didn't post it, but you were the one saying," Folly, see they running from the list and your question!" Well, I didn't run and now it's amazing to see the way you ditchin ya boy! Now, in another mark of deceit, you are pleading lack of knowledge of the list, but," What list?"
The thing is, I usually research more credible sources than wikipedia! AND it amazes me that the info that your pal Folly post can be so easily disputed by using yall source of reference, wikipedia.
This only points to one thing, AN ATTEMPT AT DECEIT!

Posted By: Voltaire On: 3/28/2010

Title:

Oh and for the record, I didn't post any list.

Posted By: Voltaire On: 3/28/2010

Title:

What list are you talking about? I thought the question was whether Poland et al allowed same sex marriage, but you seem all worked up over SOMETHING. "Liars liars liars!!" What happened man, you discovered wikipedia for the first time just now, and started actually 'researching' something hey?? Haha now you are all bad with some FACTS at your disposal. Do you really need me to research every country that Folly put up on his list so as to answer your question? Buddy, if you don't know that the trend in advanced democracies with the most sought after standards of living is towards same sex marriage, and not away from it, then I don't know how to help you. If you are unaware that its basically a sliding scale - beginning in the swamp of ignorance with fundamentalist islamic societies, and moving upwards to the enlightened view of (most) European societies, then there is no point speaking to you. So what – Poland and Lithuania them haven't made the switch? Oooo wow you just won the argument. Hahaha ridiculous. Look man, if you are serious about discussing this, then stand on your own two feet, bring some reasoning! All your arguments about the "unnaturalness" of gayness have been shot down. Instead of responding to that, you are trying to pick some holes in some lists as if by doing so you could reverse the global trend on this issue. You are getting boring now, I know you can do better than that.

Posted By: I fa common sense On: 3/28/2010

Title: Be truthful to the Bahamian people!

@ Voltaire, the point was not one of emulation, but one of truth.
If you want to be seen as objective, without an agenda, then SPEAK TRUTH! You guys come across as being fairly educated, therefore your ducking, dodging and running from valid points and questions only point to your trying to be DECEITFUL, MISLEADING, AGENDA PUSHERS. FIX THAT LIST, REPOST, and try to regain some integrity and credibility!

Posted By: I fa common sense On: 3/28/2010

Title: Bait and switch...CAUGHT AND SWITCH!

@ Voltaire, now that your lists have been shown to be a litany of distortion and lies, you are getting ready to run. I know you wouldn't want to emulate any of these countries mentioned, because apparently the most important criteria for yall in emulating a country is whether BUM RUSHERS are allowed to marry!
NO MARRIAGE FOR BOONGY BANDIT!
Yall need to fix that list!

Posted By: I fa common sense On: 3/28/2010

Title: RUNNING FROM THE QUESTION!

@Ah, Voltaire appears! Yet he refuses to answer the question! Which of of the oft talked about lists will you attach these countries to? Yall heralded list is full of lies!
And like I said, yall debate like woman or fags!
Cuba does not recognize same sex unions, you liars! The Federal Government of the USA does not recognize same sex unions, you liars! The country of Mexico does not recognize same sex unions, you liars! You guys/gays have proven to be liars and have lost all credibility!

Posted By: Voltaire On: 3/28/2010

Title:

Sorry Watchin an waitin, what questions are you referring to? Do Jamaica, Barbados, Trinidad, Italy, Greece, Lithuania and Poland have same sex marriages? I have no idea. Are these at the top of my list of countries we should be trying to emulate? Not really.
Anything else?
Let me know, and when you're finished, one of you please try to respond to the manner in which the argument about the "unnaturalness" of homosexuality was put down. Otherwise there is no point in continuing this conversation. At this point it is just getting silly.

Posted By: Voltaire On: 3/28/2010

Title:

I fa common sense - that last post addressed to me was a joke, right? Your superior LOGIC? Give me a break buddy. Logic how and where? The only two things you said that even resemble a coherent argument were that homosexuality is abnormal and unnatural; and that animals seek pleasure, not marriage - both of which were put down comprehensively by the use of evidence (that's how you make a logical argument, you know). As far as taking psychology classes and therefore being able to tell someone's sexual orientation... what joke! That is honestly, and I don't mean this insultingly, one of the stupidest things I have ever heard. You are just uncomfortable with the idea that there are straight people who will defend the gays. Trust me buddy, I like as much woman as you. When it comes to your friends who are praising your superior application of logic, tell them I've got a psychology book at home that says the tendency to mistake nonsense for sense is a clear sign of stupidity. Haahaha

Posted By: Watchin an waitin On: 3/28/2010

Title:

I fa common sense, good job showin thees people tru colors. I waitin for them to start answering your questions. The devil is the father of lies, we see who his children is.

Posted By: I fa common sense On: 3/28/2010

Title: DISMANTLING LIES ONE AT A TIME!

You were upset by my use of the phrase boongy bandit, and out of respect for you I ceased using that phrase. However, now realizing that I am dealing with a dishonest person, with no respect for the intellect of Bahamians, I return to my chosen phrase until you do the honorable thing and apologize to the readers of your rubbish.
NO MARRIAGE FOR BOONGY BANDITS!

Posted By: I fa common sense On: 3/28/2010

Title: ALBANIA? SHINING THE LIGHT ON LIES

@Mr Folly, same sex marriage is illegal in Albania. I think you have them on the wrong list! Was that a mistake or on purpose...hmmm? You and your list, the more I examine your list, the more it reveals you to be a deceitful liar!
Mr. Folly,YOU HAVE NOT answered the question, where would you place Jamaica, Barbados, Trinidad, Italy, Greece, Lithuania, Poland?

Posted By: I fa common sense On: 3/28/2010

Title: AUSTRALIA? LIES I TELLYA, LIES

@Mr. Folly, the Australian government does not support same sex marriage. I think you have them on the wrong list! Was that a mistake or on purpose...hmmm?
Mr. Folly,YOU HAVE NOT answered the question, where would you place Jamaica, Barbados, Trinidad, Italy, Greece, Lithuania, Poland?

Posted By: I fa common sense On: 3/27/2010

Title: The U.S.A....what lies dis man tells

@Mr. Folly, the federal government of the United States does not support gay marriage, I think you have them on the wrong list! Was that a mistake or on purpose...hmmm?
Mr. Folly,YOU HAVE NOT answered the question, where would you place Jamaica, Barbados, Trinidad, Italy, Greece, Lithuania, Poland?

Posted By: I fa common sense On: 3/27/2010

Title: Answer please

@Mr. Folly,YOU HAVE NOT answered the question, where would you place Jamaica, Barbados, Trinidad, Italy, Greece, Lithuania, Poland? You love lists, which of your lists would you place the countries on?

Posted By: I fa common sense On: 3/27/2010

Title: Answer please

YOU HAVE NOT answered the question, where would you place Jamaica, Barbados, Trinidad, Italy, Greece, Lithuania, Poland?

Posted By: I fa common sense On: 3/27/2010

Title: My brother, my brother

@ Mr Folly, I would venture to guess that if you placed 100 educated persons to guess your orientation, 99 of them would not pick straight man. You're an abnormality my brother!
Now, back to the topic at hand!

Posted By: I fa common sense On: 3/27/2010

Title: Straight man!

@ Mr Folly, it is not what you say that causes one to question whether you are a straight man or not. It is the way you say it.Due to the psychological make up, there's a way of delivery, there's a methodology, by which straight men debate. There's also one for women and fags. And there's nothing in your methodology, or delivery, that would lead any one to think anything other than you are a woman, or a practitioner of alternative lifestyles!

Posted By: Erasmus Folly On: 3/27/2010

Title: Grow Up

Then you had better become one. A man, truly secure in his sexuality, is not threatened in the slightest by what others choose to do. Why so lacking in confidence? Who so full of homophobia? I assure you, I am straight. I just realized, due to education, that singing boom bye bye and bashing gays was fun when I was a juvenile, but it was JUVENILE. Then you grow up!

Posted By: I fa common sense On: 3/27/2010

Title: Straight man, really now!

@Mr Folly, just a thought...I only went as far as high school, but I have read and traveled extensively. I did quite a bit of reading on psychology, and if you are a straight man, who has never played in another man's buttocks and have no desire to, I will become a sissy for a day!

Posted By: I fa common sense On: 3/27/2010

Title: Stop your nonsense!

@ Mr Folly, the list you posted purporting to be democracies was merely a list of countries that are open to gay unions! The list you posted as countries opposed was a selected list of countries to suit your purpose!
YOU HAVE NOT answered the question, where would you place Jamaica, Barbados, Trinidad, Italy, Greece, Lithuania, Poland?
If you want to be seen as objective SPEAK TRUTH not distorted facts!

Posted By: Erasmus Folly On: 3/27/2010

Title:

You choose Cuba out of that list, but you ignore all the democracies. You don't get to just pick and choose info. The democracies are listed there, so don't pretend that they are not. And, no, I don't advocate for 'gay marriage'. I already said that. I advocate for equal rights before the law. Equal rights would be allowing for civil unions which confer all the benefits of marriage without the name 'marriage', which, as I have already said, I would reserve for marriage between a man and a woman, since it is an institution conceived in the church. One must respect that fact. I am not just 'siding' with the 'gay agenda' as you put it. I am pointing out that for the Bahamas to actually deliver on its Constitutional obligation of guaranteeing all of its citizens freedom of religion (including freedom FROM religion) and equal rights, it must allow for gay 'civil unions' and thus 'gay rights'. That would guarantee that every man, woman and child in the Bahamas has the full rights afforded to them under the Constitution and that the law doesn't prejudice according to race, ethnicity, sex or gender against any Bahamian in their own land. That is what I am referring to - this democracy growing up and completing and perfecting its democratic character and joining the list of 'enlightened' and 'advanced' democracies in the world. I don't want to see my country join the list of backwards countries. Now, does that compute or are you going to attack 'boongy bandits', as you so eloquently express your 'noble' thoughts, for eternity with your simplistic and juvenile hate.

Posted By: I fa common sense On: 3/27/2010

Title: Twisted

@Mr Folly, which list are Jamaica, Trinidad, Barbados, St. Kitts, Cayman Is., Antigua etc., on? See what I mean when I talk about deceitful! You and your partial lists to suit your purpose! CUBA A DEMOCRACY!LOL, LMAO, LMBAO, ROFLMBAO!

Posted By: I fa common sense On: 3/27/2010

Title: Illogical reasoning

@Mr. Folly, I'm not talking about sweethearting because it is not the topic of our discussion! OUR Government tells no one who to date, what they can do on a date, what they can do in their bedroom, everyone is free to boongy if they so desire! What OUR government is presently doing is respecting the views of the persons who have elected them to govern. NO MARRIAGE for BOONGY BANDITS!

Posted By: I fa common sense On: 3/27/2010

Title: AGENDAS, AGENDAS, AGENDAS

@ Mr Folly, let me ask you a question, are you telling me that the only thing the Bahamas must do is legalize marriage between BOONGY BANDITS and we will appear on the list of most developed countries overnight? This list you post purporting to be democracies include CUBA, man you can't be serious! See what I talk about judgment! Ma brudda, now I convinced you have issues!

Posted By: Erasmus Folly On: 3/27/2010

Title: One more time... since you are so thick... look at the list of countries!

Title: A stark choice...
You lose nothing. It is about civil rights - human rights. These people aren't DOING anything to you. So stop acting like they are coming in your home or something. They are simply asking to be left alone; to have the same rights you and I enjoy. What are you talking about? What soul are you going to lose because two people hook up that have nothing to do with you. Stop being so concerned with other people and focus on your own actions, your own works and your own soul - that is the only route of salvation you need to worry about. Their problems with God are their own - not yours. Who are you to judge? You aren't losing any morals. You are simply allowing people to live their lives and meet their maker on their own terms. God says, judgment is mine, so... what is the big deal? How are you offended by what two people do in the privacy of their own home? Why aren't you speaking out about sweet-hearting on this island - which is the real MORAL threat to our society?! Why so concerned with a few gays?
I close with two lists:
List 1: Supporting:
All members of the EU: European Union (27)
* France Initiative
* Netherlands Initiative
And: Albania, Andorra, Argentina, Armenia, Australia, Bolivia, Bosnia and Herz, Brazil, Canada, Cape Verde, Central African Rep, Chile, Colombia, Cuba, Croatia, East Timor, Ecuador, Gabon, Georgia, Guinea-Bissau, Iceland, Israel, Japan, Liechtenstein, Macedonia, Mauritius, Mexico, Montenegro, Nepal, New Zealand, Nicaragua, Norway, Paraguay, São Tomé and Prí, Serbia, Switzerland, United States, Uruguay, Venezuela
List 2: Against
Arab League (22)
* Syria Initiative
Afghanistan, Bangladesh, Benin, Brunei, Cameroon, Chad, Côte d'Ivoire, Eritrea, Ethiopia, Fiji, The Gambia, Guinea, Indonesia, Iran, Kazakhstan, Kenya, Malawi, Malaysia, Mali, Maldives, Niger, Nigeria, North Korea, Pakistan, Rwanda, San Marino, Saint Lucia, Senegal, Sierra Leone, Solomon Islands, Swaziland, Tajikistan, Togo, Uganda, Zimbabwe
Now, the point of posting this list is that all of the democracies are in the former category and all of the dictatorships, backwards countries, tin pot leaders and lack of human rights countries are in the latter list. Which list do you think the Bahamas, as an international finance centre and tourism centre belongs on?
People need to understand. This is not a reglious/morality issue at all. This is about the rights of human beings versus their governments. This is about what the government can and cannot tell you to do. This is about whether or not the government can tell you who to date, why, what you can do with that person, and what you can or can't do in the privacy of your own home. It is about RIGHTS, period, not just Gay Rights.
You don't have to be gay or support gays to understand that. This is about freedom versus government control. Get the government out of all bedrooms: yours, mine, gay people... everyone's bedroom. A government should not have the right to tell people what they can and cannot do in their private, personal lives. If it isn't causing harm to anyone else, then government doesn't need to be part of that equation. That is the difference.

Posted By: Erasmus Folly On: 3/27/2010

Title: Rights Based Democracy - Don't Throw it Away so Casually\

Yet, you don't answer the question.
You truly prefer to be in the company of such wonderful 'free' countries as Saudi Arabia, Iran, Zimbabwe, Uzbekistan, Somalia... lovely! Just go ahead and throw us back into the stone age. Feel free. As a Bahamian, no thank you. Those countries and ours are night and day. We have rights in this country, they don't. You might not appreciate the rights based democracy, but I do. So, spew your hate, but human rights will prevail. You can't fight the future and homophobic hate is about as 'moral' as racism. Until this country learns that lesson, it won't be a 'grown up' democracy. It will still be a banana republic. We need to choose a side - the west or backwards countries... you have made your choice clear 'common nonsense'. I just hope there are more educated people here than you think there are. I hope there is enough of a critical mass of people who see through the silly and trite 'arguments' you have made. I use that term very loosely. Forward, upward, onward, together Bahamas! Right?

Posted By: I fa common sense On: 3/27/2010

Title: Someone help dis "man"

@ Mr. Folly, buddy when you ga stop dis nonsense? In your mind somewhere there is this connection that allowing boongying is a panacea for all that ails us. I have a suggestion for you, take that belief, lobby the Haitian people to legalize marriage for boongy bandits, and let's watch all their problems disappear overnight.
You seem like an intelligent person, but apparently there is a disconnect when it comes to this boongyin issue. We DON'T hate gay people! Dat's why we gave them freedom to boongy! In this democratic country we have established some social norms, one of them, NO MARRIAGE for BOONGY BANDITS. Get over it!

Posted By: Erasmus Folly On: 3/27/2010

Title: So... extend that logic...

So, extend the same to gay people and end your hypocrisy on allowing rights to some and denying it to others. How can you hate gay people if you don't even have the religious nonsensical justification for it? For what? How does it harm/effect you really on any given day living your life in the Bahamas? Do you see it destroying those other countries I mentioned? Don't you feel that the Bahamas deserves to be on the list with other democracies and not on the list with backwards countries?

Posted By: I fa common sense On: 3/27/2010

Title: We agree!

@Mr. Folly, I agree with you on that. I also want the same. Which is why I have a problem with people who call others dumb, stupid, ignorant, backwards,etc when they express opposing beliefs. You have a right to your beliefs and so do others, whether they are right, wrong or asinine! Let's respect that!

Posted By: Erasmus Folly On: 3/27/2010

Title: Rights Based Democracy - Don't Throw it Away so Casually

http://www.amazon.com/Christian-Essays-Religion-Related-Subjects/dp/0671203231
No thanks. I just want freedom of belief, which the Bahamian constitution guarantees. This is a rights based democracy, not a theocracy.

Posted By: I Love You On: 3/27/2010

Title: Because God Loves You

No witch hunts for the Christian. Jesus Christ entrusted His followers with the Ministry of Reconciliation. The end result is we know that the battle has already been won. The battle was fought for the souls of lost mankind: The battle between good and evil, truth and lies, heaven and hell, belief and unbelief. As much as we love the Bahamas, this is bigger than the Bahamas. It is global and generational. This battle is wider than homosexuality, adultery, murder, etc. It encompasses all sins. God requires mankind to have faith in God in order to understand things you don’t understand, receive what you need, be forgiven of your sins, have eternal life, be healed of sickness and disease, be delivered from the plans of the enemy. So let’s consider:
God’s Righteousness:
“Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:” Romans 3:22-24
“What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
10As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.” Romans 3:9-11
The Question:
“ …Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.” Acts 16:30-31
God’s Conditions:
“Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” John 3:3
“Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.” John 3:5
“Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.” John 3:7
God’s Provision:
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.” John 3:16-18
“And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.” John 3:19-21
God’s Salvation:
“Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
2For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
3For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God…
8…But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.” Romans 10:1-3; 8-11
Stop trying to “kick against the pricks” and believe the Gospel of Jesus Christ so that you will be able to stand before the judgment seat of Christ. God loves YOU! It is satan who hates you and is trying to deceive you.

Posted By: I fa common sense On: 3/27/2010

Title: Think I'm alone...think again!

@ Voltaire, a few people I know and I were discussing these posts. They said they were tempted to post but they didn't because I was doing such a good job kicking yall butts with simple reason and sound logic, they didn't want to interrrupt the flow of the conversation. And as your pal Mr. Folly says, this country is filled with backwards people, and backward people don't boongy nor support it! According to him legitimizing boongy bandits is a sign of enlightenment, and you know we are far removed from enlightenment!

Posted By: I fa common sense On: 3/27/2010

Title: Deceitful, I tell ya!

@ Voltaire, I'm glad you offered a bet, cause I've got one too. If you and Mr. Folly are two straight men, who have no boongy bandit experience, and no desire or proclivity to venture into the darker parts of a man's rectum, I'll give up my anal virginity to the first sexy homo I see. Now, to your bet! If I lose, this won't be the first battle I've lost, if the Bahamian people decide that's the way they want to go I have enough respect for them to accept their wishes, even if I disagree, to not call them, stupid, ignorant, backwards etc.. AND, I certainly won't think they've arrived at the first world by that decision alone. I am probably one of the biggest heathens in this country, but I value honesty! You guys have tried to operate in deceit and I wanted to draw you out, which I did. The object of all yall rants and ramblings has been exposed! There is only one! But, I'm in it for the long haul! NO MARRIAGE FOR THE BOONGY BANDITS! NO CIVIL UNION FOR THE FAGS! NO FAMILY RIGHTS FOR THE HOMOS!

Posted By: Voltaire On: 3/27/2010

Title:

Funny you say that.... I was just about to ask you if you realize that you are fighting a losing battle. Be honest - could this conversation have even taken place a few years ago? Whether you like it or not, the tide is turning. A few years ago they were protesting against gay cruises, now all they can muster is one measely pastor to complain (notice also, you are all by yourself here in this conversation; where your friends at?). Common Sense, bet you dolla before my children are grown, there will be gay marriage in this country.

Posted By: I fa common sense On: 3/26/2010

Title: The conclusion of the matter

@ Voltaire, I'm glad I didn't get your learnin! All fun and jokes aside, what this long dialogue has exposed is that in this country the only right that is being denied the boongy bandit is the right to marry. It has also exposed that the only fight the gays have in this country is the fight for marriage. So, we have come to the conclusion of the matter, all yall really fightin for is da right for boongy bandits to marry! Fight on my dear brothers, and I will be opposing you the entire length of the way! All dis talk bout rights dis and backwards dat, yall really just want the boongy bandits to be married! NEEEEEEEEEEVVVVEEEEEEEERRRRRRR!

Posted By: I fa common sense On: 3/26/2010

Title: It just sounds better

@ Mr Folly, notice I don't have to say boongy all the time!

Posted By: Voltaire On: 3/26/2010

Title:

... and if it is unfair to assume you are a Christian, it is equally unfair (and incorrect) to assume that I am gay. I am a straight, straight man, but I don't formulate my arguments based on what "team" i am on, but rather what I feel the evidence suggests is right and fair. I used to hold the very same opinion that you express, for a very long time, till i learned a thing or two.

Posted By: Voltaire On: 3/26/2010

Title:

Folly has a point Common Sense - virtually without exception, societies where gay people are allowed to marry and adopt have far lower levels of teenage delinquency, violence, child molestation, rape, domestic abuse, etc, than the Bahamas. As to your view that such relationships are "not sanctioned by nature" I have already pointed out the research which shows that nature is adaptive, incorporating every sort of relationship imaginable - straight, gay, monogamous, polygamous, hermaphroditic. Research also shows that these change over time, depending on what a particular society needs – for example, homosexuality tends to increase when a species is threatened by over-population. As any biologist could tell you, nature is about balance – not increasing numbers blindly and at all costs. But even if straight marriage were the very epitome of "natural" a relationship (which it ain't), it goes back to my point about hypocrisy - since when do Bahamians live a natural life? Only on this issue does the question even come up. We have taken on the most artificial and synthetic of behavior, eating habits, clothing trends and consumer manias of our American bretheren. C'mon, we ain't exactly the salt of the earth anymore - unless it suits our purpose. This also applies if your definition of natural is "sanctioned by the Bible" - as we completely ignore that book and fail to condemn any of the behaviors it prohibits - well, all but this one. Sorry buddy, you ain't got a leg to stand on.

Posted By: I fa common sense On: 3/26/2010

Title: Glad I'm not in da "real" world!

@ Mr Folly, I am not a christian, as a matter of fact, in between reading your rants, I am enjoying some porn! This is a rights based society, and some rights are denied because of common decency. This is one of them, NO MARRIAGE for the BUTTOCKS BANGERS! When nature decides to allow two men to produce, then we will call that a family! Until then, all this artificial, abnormal stuff yall tryin to throw together and classify as a family, we ain havin it! AND thanks, I finally got out of you what yall are really after! BUT, NO LEGITIMIZING these UNNATURAL, ABNORMAL,
UNIONS!

Posted By: Erasmus Folly On: 3/26/2010

Title: Small Minded

Who is this 'we'. Just because I am defending their rights doesn't make me gay. You small, small minded man.
I already said I don't think marriage serves gays well. Civil unions should be awarded to them - all the legal rights of marriage - without the name.

Posted By: I fa common sense On: 3/26/2010

Title: Forget it!

When was the last time you heard of a gay club being destroyed, or a person being denied a job because of being homo? As a matter of fact the refrain around here is that the boongy bandits have the best jobs! They are everywhere and I don't see them having to hide. They are free to come out of their self imposed closets. Dis da Bahamas, man! We may disagree with you, but we let you live in peace. BUT NO MARRIAGE for HOMOS! FORGET IT!

Posted By: Erasmus Folly On: 3/26/2010

Title: HAHAHA!

Yeah, because the Christian thing is to say that a child born without a father and a mother that abandons him/her or barely cares for him/her would be better off without ANY parents than, heaven forbid, gay parents. Come on man, what kind of crack do you smoke? Do you really believe that? Do you really think that child would be better off? Do you really think that child would have better education? Better health care? And a better chance of making it? Seriously! This is the problem I have with you overly religious maniacs. Your positions aren't thought our or logical, they are just built on archaic 'laws' that have long since shown to be vacuous and a waste of time. Like I said, rock fever runs this place! You all need to get out more and see real 'open' societies and how the real world functions - not this artificial bubble of nonsense and common, as in vulgar, thinking! This is a rights based democracy. All our citizens deserves their rights protected.

Posted By: I fa common sense On: 3/26/2010

Title: YALL WAN MARRY, EY?

@ Voltaire, which country you livin in bro/sis? I have traveled to every nook and cranny of this country, and I have seen gays modeling along the main streets. I have seen them feeding each other conch fritters in restaurants, I have seen them directing choirs, I have seen them at the forefront of many public functions. They have their clubs. They have their pageants. The only thing I can agree with you on is we don't allow them a right to form families, which is a view sanctioned by nature. Two BOONGY BANDITS can't reproduce! I know that's what yall really after, marriage. AND I agree that right is being denied yall. AND I support that DENIAL! NO MARRIAGE for the BOONGY BANDITS!

Posted By: erasmus folly On: 3/26/2010

Title: read!

Voltaire just spelt them up. Read! Stop being so ignorant!

Posted By: I fa common sense On: 3/26/2010

Title: I NEED TO KNOW, PLEASE

@ Mr Folly, why are you avoiding the question? In this lil backward country of ours, what right is being denied the ANUS ADMIRERS? You are screaming about rights this and rights that, WHAT RIGHTS ARE BEING DENIED the RECTUM RUMBLERS?

Posted By: Voltaire On: 3/26/2010

Title:

MAN common sense - I know you are not that dumb. The wikipedia page is a conspiracy by the gays???? The page lists tons of links to scholarly research by serious academics. You might want to check them out. You might also want to consider finding out what you are talking about before you post. Most of the research reflects the role of homosexuality as a force for social cohesion in animal communities – a way of reinforcing social bonds, deflecting aggression, etc. Nothing to do with pleasure. You just made that up.
With regard to your question, gay people in a society such as this are denied the right to form a family. This includes the right to convey important benefits to their significant other if that person happens to be of another nationality. Less concretely, but perhaps more importantly, they are denied the dignity of being viewed as equal to other members of society. Without special protections (which are only needed because of the barbaric attitudes of the majority of this society) they are consigned to live in fear and shame. They are denied an equal voice, because they are always shouted down and threatened by Bible-thumping troglodytes who have no idea what they are talking about. They are subject to discrimination and forced to live in an atmosphere of hatred and animosity. Worst of all, perhaps, they are on the receiving end of the most vicious form of hypocrisy by a society who ignores virtually all other Old Testament strictures, but is all fire and brimstone over this issue.

Posted By: Erasmus Folly On: 3/26/2010

Title: Try this on for size...

http://www.vanityfair.com/culture/features/2010/04/hitchens-201004
I don't want you to burst a brain vessel while you spell 'boongy' too many times though. Seriously, I am concerned for your health here now. The nonsense may be reaching critical levels of commonality!

Posted By: I fa common sense On: 3/26/2010

Title: Not now

Yall wan marry bad, hey? NO MARRIAGE for the lovers of boongy!

Posted By: I fa common sense On: 3/26/2010

Title: Answer the question please, please

@Voltaire & Mr. Folly, the question remains the same!
What other right is being denied the BOONGY BANDIT? I really want to know! NO MARRIAGE for BOONGY BANDITS. NO CIVIL UNION for HOMOS!

Posted By: Erasmus Folly On: 3/26/2010

Title: ABC

You think if I post the alphabet alone that the rabid dog will attack that post too, since he likes potcakes so much and is prepared to determine his sexual orientation according to the behaviour of stray dogs? Wait, isn't that 'sweet-hearting'? ;-)
abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz
That's why you should allow gay people to have rights. That is about as much logic as you have used so far 'common non-sense'. You are precisely the petty minds that ruin this country with your 'rock fever' mentality. As Forrest Gump said, "Stupid is as stupid does."

Posted By: I fa common sense On: 3/26/2010

Title: Animals seek pleasure, not marriage!

Any idiot can post on wikipedia, so I'm sure that some homos have posted there! Furthermore, animals seek pleasure, where they find it they repeat. But, I don't think there is any abundance of evidence to support any view that the animals have made a decision to then allow there desire for pleasure, overwhelm there natural urge for procreation, bonding with the other sex etc. I repeat if Boongy bandits get pleasure from their craft, more power to them, I understand humans inclination to pleasure. But, don't try to convince sensible people that this desire for pleasure then translates to a right to marriage! Again I ask, what other right is being denied the boongy bandit?

Posted By: Voltaire On: 3/26/2010

Title:

@ I fa common sense - i don't know about dismantling arguments; all you seem to do is plead limited intelligence whenever you are confronted with an opinion of even slight complexity. Usually deconstruction implies a superior application of logic, rather than the stubborn repetition of unproven propositions and subjective value judgments, but whatever. As to your suggestion that "I might change my mind if I start to see some of these potcakes boongying", try and learn something - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual_behavior_in_animals

Posted By: I fa common sense On: 3/26/2010

Title: Me, the biggest dummy!

Me, with my limited intelligence, and don't forget backward self, will dismantle every argument you put forward seeking more rights for the BOONGY BANDITS! There presently is only one right that they don't have, and I see yall comin long time! NO MARRIAGE etc for the HOMOS! Please tell us, in this backward society of ours, what other right is being denied the BOONGY BANDITS! NO MARRIAGE for the BOONGY BANDITS! No CIVIL UNION for the HOMOS!

Posted By: Erasmus Folly On: 3/26/2010

Title: Yeah, not bothered by 'common' nonsense!

@Voltaire
I don't expect much from his limited intelligence, but his repeated comments allow the story to stay alive on the 'comments' section. He is serving his purpose well enough. ;-)

Posted By: I fa common sense On: 3/26/2010

Title: Guess I'll die backwards & third world!

@ Voltaire and Mr. Folly, I will answer that question! If the determining factor to me being first world, is whether or not I allow marriage to boongy bandits, then I guess I will die third world and backwards! NO MARRIAGE etc to the boongy bandits! I might change my mind if I start to see some of these potcakes boongying, but until then, NO MARRIAGE for the homos! There is presently no right that an unmarried heterosexual couple enjoy that the boongy bandits don't, so the only other right yall could be seeking is the right to marry etc.. Yall tryin to get on the level of me and my decent wife,but, NO MARRIAGE to the BOONGY BANDITS!

Posted By: Voltaire On: 3/26/2010

Title:

You see Folly, again and again you ask, and in response they drivel on with nonsense and scripture quotes, but they refuse to answer the question. Which list do they want to be on? – progressive democracy or third world backwater?

Posted By: Erasmus Folly On: 3/26/2010

Title: Forward, upward, onward, together!

The answer is still, no consequence. Enshrining women's rights and gay rights into the laws of the Bahamas puts us in step with all the other advanced democracies of the western world. You don't see them falling apart at the seems do you? Are Canada, the Scandinavian countries, the UK, France, Germany, Italy, Spain, Benelux, Switzerland falling apart? Are the US states that allowed for 'civil unions' or protected women from marital rape falling apart? Come on! What juvenile nonsense to think that this would 'destroy' society. Bahamians are doing a good job of that on their own already. All those countries I listed don't have our crime, our lack of education or fundamental economic problems that they aren't 'actively' rectifying everyday. The motto of the country is: Forward, upward, onward, together. Not Backwards, sideways, roundabout and everyman for himself! Let's join the modern world and the advanced democracies and reject the model of the Islamic republics and their intolerance and the African republics and their archaic and corrupt laws. Are we part of the modern world or an archaic backwater? The Bahamas must choose what kind of country it is going to be in the 21st century. I for one hope that we affirm that we are a rights based Parliamentary democracy and we move away from our theocratic tendencies and dismantle that last influence of the church on the state. It is long, long overdue. There was a time when progressive ideas held sway. Where this retrograde ghetto culture came from, I don't know. It certainly isn't authentically Caribbean. This used to be a far more open minded place.

Posted By: Thinker On: 3/26/2010

Title: I think

Money s more important. I think. But at what consequences?

Posted By: Observer On: 3/26/2010

Title: Just looking

Why make private affairs public any how? let gay people do what they do in the bedroom. Treat them like humans as they are, if they want add their gay lover to their insurance or will so be it that should be optional of personal choice. Not discriminated against on the job fine. But no civil unions or gay marriage. If a person want to name their pet dog as a benficiary so be it but dont marry gays and call it Normal.
Yes gambling is a public issues and i think should be legalized since the tourists do it.
If we are a true christian nation then there should be no liquor bars, no selling alchol, no nudity over on atlantis paradise island (so i hear), no pornography being sold in any dvd stores or allowed on the internet over BTC and Cable Bahamas networks, No pornography on Cable bahamas, no Drugs, etc need I go on. That sounds almost like a muslim state.
Might as well go all out if ya claim 2 be a christian nation. If not then we are religious so legalize gambling and the strip clubs too. Or outlaw them all together so no tourist can gamble then the tourist industry will suffer. what is more important to this country Christianity or Money, or obeying outdated laws?

Posted By: Just wacthing the world go Round On: 3/26/2010

Title: Express the right voice

taneka thompson miss 1 point if im not mistaken. Homosexuality is not natural A baby does not come out of a man's rectum only fecal matter.
homos do gayness cuz dey want to, dey somehow enjoy it and dey like to walk with a limp, and bent wrist. Some homos take female hormones which is unnatural. then U have lesbians take male hormones which is unnatural. Or against nature for Humans.
Male dogs bungy other male dogs temporarily to show dominance or experimentation. Just because homosapiens or humans are considered mammals does not mean we should copy animal behaviour in that homosexual regard. Humans are the superior species and predators. Even though some of Us Humans do dumb stuff like selling out our country, letting crime get out of hand, letting dese lawyers profit off dese cases, dont protest for fair policies, let murderers go on bail, no justice for white collar criminals, celebrate old heads with checkered pasts like drugs but aint do a d**n good thing for the 242!
Please read the book the Cocaine wars by Paul Eddy
Paul Eddy (Author), Hugo Sabogal (Contributor), Sara Walden (Contributor)
Interesting to read of the stand the Bahamian government played in all the dealings.
Check www.amazon.com and search.
My point is Humans do dumb stuff at the hurt of themselves, children and country. Even tho We are the superior species.
Offspring are born by either sexual or asexual reproduction never homosexual/lesbian reproduction. That dont exist. Why u think gays adopt or lesbians have sex surgery but still keep their wombs but look like men because of male hormones but was born female. This Obviously shows gender confusion if Anybody have any common sense.
Everybody wants their opinion heard but dont want to stick to, or follow the tried and true. The truth.
My next point is gays/lesbians should only adopt teenagers 16years old or young adults at least they would have been exposed to the gay issues and all the opions associated with the issue instaed of young, imressionable children who know no better and dont no the wildness and dog eat dog world out there. What about the rights of children!
Treat people like people, yes but dont say homos or lesbians are normal in their sexuality since what they are doing is UNNATURAL!
U dont have to be a Genius, scientist paid off by gay/lesbian special interests groups, to SEE that!

Posted By: Ava Forbes On: 3/26/2010

Title: The Truth

“For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect? God forbid, yea let God be true and every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightiest be justified in thy sayings, and mayest overcome when thou art judged.” Romans 3:2-3
The reason many are disquieted by the flaunting of sin is because there are penalties attached to sin. Sodom and Gomorrah was filled with consenting adults yet there was a penalty they suffered for their sin. If you throw away the commandments and warnings of God, and say you don’t believe it, that will not stop the penalties from being set in motion. The summation of all penalties for sin is – death. “For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.” Romans 6:23 Unbelief is like this: just say someone “Mr. know-it-all, were building a beautiful home, and he believed that he could invest all his money into the construction of this home, but did not believe that he needed to use a “Level” to make sure that the foundation was correct, the walls were straight, etc. He felt that what he had constructed was strong and could stand any test come what may. But sadly, one day a test did come, and a mighty storm came and all the shoddy, crooked construction came under intense pressure and Mr. Know-it-all was inside this structure. Here is where his belief is being tested. Will that house stand? Would he risk his life to stay inside, knowing that he did not use a critical tool in the house’s construction? Moreover, his family is inside with him, and they all know he disregarded a critical tool in constructing this home. Would they huddle in fear, not knowing if the walls would cave in, or the roof collapse, or the windows blow out, because Mr. Know-it-all didn’t believe he needed to use a Level in the construction of the building. It’s possible that they may escape, but the building more than likely would be lost. Of course, no sensible construction man would risk such a thing. Yet, some risk far more when they decide they don’t believe God’s Word is the true guide for one’s life. While, of course, others fear and believe that what God says is the Truth and decide to live and build their lives upon this relationship and knowledge. The Truth says, such a person who hears these teachings of Jesus Christ and does them will stand; while the other who does not do them, will not stand under the pressures of life.
In conclusion, here is some food for thought from the real “Level of Truth:”
“Blessed is the man that walks not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor stands in the way of the sinners, nor sits in the seat of the scornful. But his delight is in the law of the LORD, and in His law does he meditate day and night. And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water; that brings forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither, and whatsoever he does shall prosper. The ungodly are not so: but are like the chaff which the wind drives away. Therefore, the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous. For the LORD knows the way of the righteous, but the way of the ungodly shall perish.” Psalm 1

Posted By: I fa common sense On: 3/25/2010

Title: So far, and no further!

@Erasmus, LOL! Yes my skull is dense...it is filled with NO MARRIAGE for boongy bandits! No hatred bro.! Just drawing the line on decency! The homos are free to boongy, unrestricted...but NO MARRIAGE etc. for the homos. I actually, read that quote 10 yrs ago.

Posted By: Erasmus Folly On: 3/25/2010

Title: Dense Skull

At least I presented a logical argument, unlike your hate filled orthodox rants. Read the quote again and then again and then again... it might sink in to your dense skull.

Posted By: I fa common sense On: 3/25/2010

Title: Thanks!

@Mr. Folly, just like the BOONGY BANDITS want the right to marrisge etc.. NO MARRIAGE etc, for boongy bandits. There are some rights we don't allow because of common decency. Thanks for your submission, your twisted logic failed miserably in this discussion. NO MARRIAGE etc. in this backward Bahamas for boongy bandits! We already give dem the right to boongy, we aint gern no further!

Posted By: erasmus folly On: 3/25/2010

Title: Gibran

You want the rights of a crazy person. Done talking with you. You aren't worth the time or the effort.
I leave you with this quote to ponder, written by a truly spiritual man:
I have learned silence from the talkative, toleration from the intolerant, and kindness from the unkind; yet, strange, I am ungrateful to those teachers.
Kahlil Gibran

Posted By: I fa common sense On: 3/25/2010

Title: Gimme A Break!

I want the right to walk down Bay St. and the mall naked, I want the right to masturbate in public, I want the right to smoke dope and hit cocaine in public places, I want the right to have sex with my sweetie on Goodman's Bay on Easter Monday. Give me all my rights. Oh Voltaire, gimme a break!

Posted By: Voltaire On: 3/25/2010

Title:

Folly, as you and I well know, the only reason to deny rights to another person who is not harming anyone is fear and insecurity. That means there really is no point in arguing with these people, because truth and sense will never get through to them.

Posted By: Erasmus Folly On: 3/25/2010

Title: Blissful Ignorance

You said, "We will not give the sweetheart the same rights as the wife...". Funny, because, the way the law is in the Bahamas today, the sweetheart actually does have more rights than the wife - she can claim rape, a wife can't. Again, common sense, your ignorance shines through.

Posted By: I fa common sense On: 3/24/2010

Title: Free to love boongy

@ Mr Folly, good afternoon sir. Noone is denying two men the right to boongy, just as noone is denying the adulterer the right to commit adultery. Two men can boongy at leisure in this great country of ours. When was the last time someone went before the courts for boongying. Boongying is not a crime in this country. But we have determined what the basic structure of our society will look like. We will not give the sweetheart the same rights as the wife, we won't allow a man to have two wives at the same time and we won't allow two sissies to marry. I mean we could allow a man to have two wives, or allow two men to marry. But, we have determined NO MARRIAGE etc for the boongy bandits! END OF STORY!

Posted By: Erasmus Folly On: 3/24/2010

Title: Mock on, Mock on!

A rights based democracy that understands that protecting your right to choose your way of life, so long as it doesn't cause harm to anyone or doesn't involve minors, is a more enlightened society than one that doesn't value rights. If you think otherwise, explain why... The burden of proof lies with you. Your right to believe whatever you want is more protected in such a society, not less. So, explain to me why you wouldn't allow such rights. Let's hear these 'noble' reasons and the 'Christian' love that supports them.

Posted By: I fa common sense On: 3/24/2010

Title: I guess I'm just backwards

@Mr. Folly, in the last line of your post from yesterday, you are right back at it. To show we are enlightened we should allow civil unions, if we don't we are backwards. What a high standard to enlightenment! All those opposed to boongying are backwards!
In this country of ours, men are free to have sex with another man's buttocks. No one is denying them that "privilige". What you now want is for our society to change our whole basic structure to accommodate a perversion, and this will somehow show that we are enlightened. WOW!

Posted By: I fa common sense On: 3/24/2010

Title: Say wha?

@ Voltaire, boongying or hanging around boongy bandits must do something to a persons judgment and reasoning ability. I mean I try with my little small brain to follow you guys argument, but somewhere along the way yall does make a funny turn and lose me. But, that should be expected because in good judgment yall turn from sweet vagina to rectum. In spite of all the jibberish in your last post, you got it right at the end! Morality is legislated sometimes, and this is one of those times. NO MARRIAGE etc. for the boongy bandits!

Posted By: Voltaire On: 3/24/2010

Title:

@ I fa common sense – your comments don't really reflect the quality referred to in your name. You say we legislate morality all the time, but the examples do not reflect this. For example, the reason you can't have consensual sex with a 12-year-old is because that age is deemed by the law to below the age of consent - ie the subject in question is unqualified mentally or emotionally to make such a decision. That is not a moral law, it is an ETHICAL one, and there is a big, big difference. Ethical laws are about protecting the rights of the individual (which includes making decisions on behalf of those who through age or disability have a diminished capacity to do so for themselves). If this was a MORAL law – ie a regulation which makes no claim to fairness or universality but is intended to reflect the arbitrary bias of one group or belief system – then it would be illegal to sleep with ANY woman but your wife. You are right that morality is legislated sometimes, but that don't make it a good thing. Hope that ain't too much common sense for you.

Posted By: Erasmus Folly On: 3/24/2010

Title: Truth

With this much ignorance, no thank you. Ideas speak for themselves, the messenger is not important. The truth stands alone and that is fine by me.

Posted By: Ava Forbes On: 3/24/2010

Title: What more could He do?

He came to the earth. While He was here He did many mighty works including healing the sick, cleansing the lepers, casting out demons, opening the eyes of the blind, unstopping deaf ears, healing those who were maimed etc. He was crucified to pay the price for our sins, died and was buried. On the third day He rose from the dead as He had previously said. He was seen by witnesses after His resurrection. What more could he do to prove that who He was, and everything He said and did was the Truth? And all He requires of us is to repent of our sins and believe this Good News to the point that it would be evident in our daily lives—that’s all. You don’t have to change the law in order to be put right with God, all you have to do is to repent and change your ways to His right ways. No one else has made this sacrifice for mankind, nor could even conceive of it, nor will ever do it. Who would live a life free from sin yet would undergo such a cruel punishment at the hands of cruel men and yet not say one word in His own defense? He did it for your sins and mine. He paid the price: “For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.” Romans 6:22-23 That’s love. So let’s go back to that “Level” which we use to measure the accuracy of constructing buildings, bridges etc. say, one has been put away for 2,000 years and is brought out to measure a “modern” structure. Even though 2,000 years old, it will still give an accurate reading. The truth a million years from now will still be the truth. But as for lies… the truth says ”The lip of truth shall be established forever, but a lying tongue but for a moment.” Proverbs 12:19. This is what Jesus Christ in Matthew 5:19 says will happen to those who break God's commandments and teach men so: "Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." So some of you all are envisioning a "modern" Bahamas where there are no moral guidelines or selective moral guidelines, i.e, those that are convenient for you. Oh, and if you are speaking the truth sign your real names.

Posted By: Erasmus Folly On: 3/23/2010

Title: The Issue

And that was my point from the beginning... as you said. You hate what they do. I too have that 'gut' reaction, but I recognized a long time ago that my 'gut' reactions are my primitive 'instinctual' reactions. It doesn't make them 'normal' or reveal some 'law of nature'. Other people have other gut reactions. Their reactions are just as natural, just different. I have mine, you have yours and they have theirs. So, can't we just let bygones be bygones and stop hating on the gays already? Understand, so long as it is consensual sex between adults, that there is no reason for the law of the Bahamas (the State) to be involved. In a modern Bahamas, I expect that a rights based democracy would protect difference. I don't believe we need to prejudice the law against gays. On the question of marriage, I am conservative. I respect that marriage was 'invented' by the religious institutions, so they should have exclusive rights to the name, but I would fully endorse and support 'civil unions' for gay couples. I think the gay movement has done itself a disservice in demanding 'full marriage'. They should be lobbying hard for 'civil unions', they would have more support from open minded religious people as well. I for one think our image around the world would benefit immensely if we introduced 'civil union' legislation for the country. We would show we are an enlightened society, not a backwards, third world backwater.

Posted By: I fa common sense On: 3/23/2010

Title: My woman beckons, until later

@Mr Folly, there's no hate or phobia, my brother. Just as I can tell the child molester he's wrong, or the adulterer, or the thief, that's all I'm doing. No phobia, no hate. Then again due to the psychological make-up of homos, just like a self-centered child, any correction is interpreted as hate. But I gat nothing but love fa homos, but I hate the s@*t they do.

Posted By: Erasmus Folly On: 3/23/2010

Title: HAHAHAH!

Enjoy, I haven't asked my girlfriend for that, but if you tell me it was good, perhaps I will. ;-)
Now, that is the Bahamian in us, laugh no matter what. Have a good one.

Posted By: Erasmus Folly On: 3/23/2010

Title: More info...

You want a bigger list:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_animals_displaying_homosexual_behavior
Again, if you don't trust wikipedia, there are university published medical journals, zoological journals and encyclopedias you can consult to get actual facts. Your sanctimonious posturing has been amusing.

Posted By: I fa common sense On: 3/23/2010

Title: Any sex between opposite sex is right sex

@Mr. Folly, I think tonight i might ask my wife to put her finger up my bum, as we make sweet love as nature intended, and massage my erogenous zone. Just because there's a pleasure point there doesn't mean I must let a man brutalize me back there.
Any sex between the same sex is wrong sex!

Posted By: Erasmus Folly On: 3/23/2010

Title: Last Laugh

Perhaps your enlightenment will begin when you address your own homophobia and figure out why it is that you hate gays so much... you served your purpose though. I may yet need you yet to spew your bile again, but I will call upon you when the time is right. Until then, rest assured that you did your part in this dialogue. You played your 'role' well. I couldn't have done it without you actually.

Posted By: I fa common sense On: 3/23/2010

Title: Follow a fool according to his folly

@Mr Folly, you pick one species out of all the animal kingdom to try and justify your perversion. With all the potcakes around here have you seen two males hitched, what about two male cats, chickens, pigeons, cows, horses,pigs, goats, and on and on. An exception to a rule makes it an abnormality. An exception to nature makes it unnatural. Once again, and I think this may be finally, because there is none so blind as those who refuse to see, enjoy your boongying or the company of your boongying friends, but don't try to get sensible people to believe that sissying is normal, and the new path to love, peace, brotherly love and enlightenment.

Posted By: Erasmus Folly On: 3/23/2010

Title: Un-common Sense

The example of nature is clear. There are 'gays' in the animal kingdom as well. Why do you ignore that fact conveniently? It is proven in 'higher mammals'. There are gay chimpanzees for example. Our closest cousin in the animal kingdom... you CHOOSE to ignore that fact. I already said, I am a straight male, so implying that I am gay just means that you have chosen not to be 'civil' just as you have chosen to be 'ignorant' of the reality of the world around you. You close your own eyes, but don't ask others to close theirs for your archaic notion of 'common sense'. We live in a 'rights' based democracy, not a theocracy or a Taliban religious state. You refuse to answer the obvious questions and you refuse to acknowledge which list of countries the Bahamas belongs on. Those are your choices, but stop implying that all of us have to share your 'common sense', there is nothing common about being an ignorant bigot... then again, in this country, maybe there is?!

Posted By: I fa common sense On: 3/23/2010

Title: No bible needed, watch the birds and the bees

@Mr Folly, by the way, I never mentioned God or claimed to be holier than thou, I have just expressed things from a common sense approach. What gets me is, you tell an adulterer they are wrong, they will admit it. You tell a thief he is wrong he will admit it if only to himself. Only these "sensible" boongy bandits can't look at nature and see homosexuality is unnatural and abnormal. Only the "sensible" boongy bandits are trying to get society to make unnatural, natural and abnormal, normal.

Posted By: I fa common sense On: 3/23/2010

Title: Only boongy bandits have sense

@ Mr. Folly, we aren't discussing those questions you posted. We are discussing boongy bandits! Why are you all over the place from one thing to the next. Let's keep it focused and simple. If you want to boongy or be boongied I have no problem with that, that's your choice. But don't insult the intelligence of sensible people by claiming that this is normal or natural. There's all sorts of ways people derive sexual pleasure, a penis up the boongy may be one of them, I don't know, but say that you find the experience pleasurable and not try to get everyone else to accept this as normal and twist up the whole of society.

Posted By: Erasmus Folly On: 3/23/2010

Title: 'Common' Sense is simply the 'collected' opinons of the masses... our masses aren't so bright, so forget common sense in this country!

Perhaps you would like to explain why there is an erogenous zone in the anus of all males then that is linked to the prostate and this fact is scientifically proven? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erogenous_zone
If you don't trust wikipedia, ask a Doctor, read the journals of Medicine or go buy a real encyclopedia (not a Christian encyclopedia) and read it. You can 'learn' all about it.
Listen, 'common sense', when I was young and dumb, I used to think like you. In some ways, I still do - it is my nature as an heterosexual male to have certain 'gut' responses. If you ask me today, do I think gay sex is gross, my honest answer, being a heterosexual male is, two men getting it on sickens me to my stomach, but two women or more doesn't upset me in the slightest. That is a 'gut' answer, an 'instinctual' answer, but my 'gut' and my 'instincts' are my own, as are yours. Ask a gay man the same question, you get a different answer. That is the point. Who is right, who is wrong? Neither party is right or wrong is the point - we have to learn to get along and respect that different people are different! What makes you so right? What makes your 'holier than thou' position so right? Because you have God on your side? The list of morons who claimed God was on their side is very, very long. Some had success, some didn't... seems about roughly 50/50 to me. I wonder why...
As to you not answering my questions, I knew you wouldn't. When reason and logic is presented, the ignorant always run for their 'fortresses' of orthodox idiocy! No surprise there at all. To answer my questions would be a challenge to your deeply held beliefs. I respect your right to your beliefs, so now, can you please respect the rights of others as well? That is what 'civilization' is all about and your lack of 'common sense' is due to our lack of 'civilized and educated people' in this country. We have religious fanatics who do a lot of church on Sunday and a lot of other things through the week that they need a lot of forgiveness for the following Sunday. That is not 'common sense' that is 'mass hypocrisy'.

Posted By: I fa common sense On: 3/23/2010

Title: Idiots, I say. Idiots

@Eramus Folly, sir/madam, I may not be able to answer any of your questions, but after careful study and research one thing I can answer...the penis was not/is not designed for boongy! There's no natural lubrication like a vagina. Das all I know!
@Voltaire, we legislate morality all the time. That's why I can't walk in public naked, or have consensual sex with a twelve year old etc., or can't marry my sister. We just want to maintain one more, no marriage etc. for boongy bandits!

Posted By: Erasmus Folly On: 3/23/2010

Title: Question and Answer Time

Finally, your ability to quote 2000 year old 'opinions' written in a 'sacred' book neither makes you 'informed', 'educated', 'intelligent' or whatever else you want to run on about. It just highlights how limited your scope and range of thought are.
Here, lets try these on for size? Answer honestly, so that we can understand your 'true' feelings on these matters. 12 questions for 12 'disciples'?
1. How old is the universe?
2. How old is the earth?
3. Why are there dinosaur bones?
4. Why are some people born gay?
5. Was Jesus a good teacher with an amazing message or something more? Was this clear from the beginning or did the Council of Nicaea officially proclaim him the 'Son of God' in 325 AD?
6. Are all the world's Muslims, Hindus, Sikhs, Taoists, agnostics, atheists etc... ie non-Christians wrong, living in sin and therefore going to hell? Even those who basically follow 'Christian' morality and have lived a 'good life' their entire life? Pretend that even your God thought they lived a good life and then answer the question.
7. Do you really believe that every man, woman and child on this earth is the direct descendant of only two people, Adam and Eve?
8. Do you think Noah's Ark is a true story?
9. Do you really believe that Moses 'parted' the red sea supernaturally?
10. Why is there evil in the world at all? Who put the snake in the garden?
11. Do you believe in UFOs? If so, why?
12. Why do you think the church selected certain books for 'The Bible' and rejected others? Whose criteria did they use? Mans or Gods? Why did they ignore those other books if those other writers also said they were inspired by God and writing what God told them to write?
Now, don't bite off more than you can chew, but answer honestly and in good faith and maybe we can all 'learn' something, which would mean we used this beautiful day that the Lord has made for something positive. ;-)

Posted By: Erasmus Folly On: 3/23/2010

Title: Literal vs Figurative truth

All of you 'literal' followers of the The Bible are sadly blind fanatics with no sense. It is sad to share this small island with such fanatics. Are we Iran or a first world democracy? Are we prepared to listen to the rantings of fanatics as 'public policy' or are we a free thinking people? Are we listening to those who have education, depth and a global view or the myopic musings of sheltered 'villagers'? Do we appreciate science? Do we appreciate reason? Do we appreciate thinking? Or are we prepared to condemn the entire country to the 'Dark Ages'? The last time the church ruled the world, they taught that bathing was unhealthy and the Great Plague was the result. Europeans fought a long and terrible series of wars to push back the archaic authority of the church, but Bahamians are prepared to throw their freedom, liberty and citizen's rights under the bus to appease Bentley driving moral charlatans. Sad, beyond sad. Humanity, with all its 'noble' hate disgusts me and these poor souls don't even know how lost they really are. Egos, opinions and a 2000 year old book don't make a 'reasoned argument'. Science, contemplation, thought and study make a reasoned argument. You speak of nature, but don't study it. You speak of nature and explain it as it is explained to you in a book written 2000 years ago or more and translated several times in many different languages by many different hands. There is any amount of real 'scientific' studies to read, study and understand, but you ignore all the modern enterprise of free thinking people for literal loyalty to the archaic scrolls of the Old Testament. Sad. You also ignore Jesus actual message of love. Even more sad. By your own religious standards, hypocrisy is the only real religion you follow. You ignore Jesus message of love and praise the Mosaic Leviticus message of hate. Who is ignorant? Who informed? What else, aside from the Bible, have you read to have an 'informed' opinion on the matter? See, unlike you, I read everything I can get my hands on. You read 'selectively'. I have read your book cover to cover 5 or 6 times in my lifetime, but that only scratches the surface of books I have read - that is what you overly religious Christians don't understand. You don't read other things and then rant to the world that the others are ignorant - it doesn't work like that.

Posted By: Voltaire On: 3/23/2010

Title:

This is so tiresome. Ava Forbes, Word On, and the rest: Why can you not understand (must be because you just don't want to) - what you say is all well and good for you Christians, and you are allowed to believe whatever you want. But I am not one of you, so none of that stuff applies to me. Why must I be beholden to it? Why must all the muslims, hindus, atheists, buddhists and so on who live in this country be governed by your explanations of right and wrong? Why are you all so insecure? Why can't you leave people alone? Mind your own household, and I will mind mine. Like Erasmus Folly said, do you really want to be on that list of fundamentalist countries that enshrine morality into law?? (I noticed no one answered his question, I wonder why???)

Posted By: Ava Forbes On: 3/23/2010

Title: The Real Truth

P. O. Box N-4675
Nassau, Bahamas
March 23, 2010
The Editor
Nassau, Guardian
Dear Sir:
The precious blood of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ which was shed to take away our sins stands as a witness for us today and the power of God to heal and deliver us from every strategy of our enemy the devil.
Let’s speak about The Truth today for many would like to know like Pilate, “What is truth?”
In the construction industry there is a tool commonly called “The Level”. Actually, the name printed on every level is “The Level of Truth”. The reason for this name is that when a level is applied to any surface, the builder will be able to tell if that particular surface is straight or crooked in some way. If the builder were to ignore or misread the level, sooner or later he will discover that whatever he is building will collapse because of his constructing upon incorrect information. If another builder were to come along and discover the error, in order to correct this he would have to start “cheating on the plan.” This means he would have to continually make adjustments in his calculations from there on in order to continue the construction process. The role of the Building Inspector is very significant and essential. He must ensure that construction is being carried out according to plan. He is also powerful, because if something does not meet required standards, he can stop construction from proceeding until it is corrected. Storms and other events have a way of revealing shoddy construction. During a hurricane, I observed as tiles were being peeled off of a recently constructed roof in an upscale neighborhood just as easily as scaling fish. As I observed this, I later learnt that the roofing contractor had skipped and important process in securing the tiles. They should have peeled off the covering strips that had glue underneath and attach the tiles to the roof as well as make sure that they were nailed down properly.
Why is all this important? Because many people are being deceived concerning the truth today. There is so much competition for our attention and some even go to extremes to try to justify lies that we need to have a “Level of Truth” to correctly apply to what we are constantly being fed. What is our “Level of Truth?” Jesus Christ was asked in John 18:38 by Pilate “What is truth?” Isn’t that the problem today? Too many people have no concrete grasp of the truth. Some people come up with statements such as “I know what MY truth is!” etc. However, we are told by Jesus Christ when speaking of the Holy Spirit in John 16:13 said “Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all truth; for he shall not speak of himself, but whatsoever he shall hear: that shall he speak, and he shall shew you things to come.” We also find in John 17:17 Jesus Christ speaking these words in prayer to His Heavenly Father: “Sanctify them by thy truth: Thy word is truth.” About himself, Jesus Christ says: “I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.” John 14:6. What is the evidence that Jesus Christ is the truth? The Resurrection. He came back from the dead just as he said he would. It is not sufficient to have “The Word of God” you must also have “The Spirit of Truth” to guide you. You must also have a personal relationship with the truth by doing what is instructed. Here again Jesus said in John 17:17 “If any man do his will, he will know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.” There is a story of a man who demonstrated his personal relationship with God to his mockers, by pulling out an orange and eating it in their presence. He then posed the question to them, “Now, tell me was that orange sweet or sour?” How could they know the answer if they had not tasted it? The Word of God must also be done not just read and spoken. As the natural “level” is a critical mistake if you don’t use it to measure when constructing; we are to apply “The Level of Truth” (The Word of God) to our daily lives in order to know whether we have rightly interpreted what is written. It is our “Level of Truth” to construct our lives upon. We are told by Jesus also to teach others to obey the truth. For we are told by “The Truth” what will happen to those who teach others to disobey God’s commandments as well as what will happen to those who teach others to obey.
Why is all this so important? Because “The Truth” told us where all lies come from: “The devil, the father of lies.” Why does the devil lie? Jesus identified the devil’s agenda in John 10:10: “But the thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill and to destroy: I have come that they might have life, and they might have it more abundantly.”
The Truth tells us in 1 Corinthians 14:13 “For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace in all the churches of the saints.” We also find out that why we are attacked for proclaiming and demonstrating God’s word is that “darkness does not like light.” The attack is not so much against us but it is actually a reproach against God. The Psalmist David, cried out “The reproaches of them that reproach you, have fallen upon me.” (Psalm 69:9) He is essentially crying out to Jehovah Sabaoth, The Lord of Hosts. He is calling on God to take up this battle and so we read in Psalm 68:1-3 “Let God arise, let His enemies be scattered. Let them also that hate him, flee before him. As smoke is driven away, so drive them away. As wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God. But let the righteous be glad; let them rejoice before God; yea let them exceedingly rejoice.” When we call upon God as “The Ancient of Days” this destroys the spirit of confusion from the atmosphere immediately.
God does not want His people to be deceived by any means. He has equipped us thoroughly to know the truth from a lie. If a man has sex with another man, that is a lie from the devil and no matter how one might try to justify it before the courts of the land, it will not be able to stand before “The Truth” period. It is to be repented of, plain and simple so you can be forgiven and move on with the true life God has for you. That’s love! Note those who teach otherwise. The Truth says two angels were empowered to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah. May the same anointing which was upon these angels be upon all those who proclaim the truth concerning the spirits of Sodom and Gomorrah.
Heavenly Father, have mercy on the Commonwealth of The Bahamas and let the truth be proclaimed as well as done in this land for all generations, in Jesus’ name we pray. Amen.
Yours faithfully,
Ava Forbes

Posted By: I fa common sense On: 3/22/2010

Title: Boongy on!

Ok, you have convinced me! Boongying is the path to enlightenment! Boongying is the path to true love! Boongy on my dear brothers, boongy on! Where ignorance is bliss tis folly to be wise.

Posted By: the Word On: 3/22/2010

Title: please

Interpret That!

Posted By: The Word On: 3/22/2010

Title: Romans 1:18-32

God's Wrath Against Mankind
18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.
26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
28Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve

Posted By: Erasmus Folly On: 3/22/2010

Title: Important to consider... The Tribune should post this... are we a two bit tin pot backwards dictatorship or Arab theocracy or are we a modern democracy?

I ask again, read and understand this fully Bahamas - one list is the countries that support gender equality and the RIGHT of sexual orientation and the other list is those countries that don't:
List 1: Supporting:
All members of the EU: European Union (27) - IE 27 European nations here - majority 'Christian' countries
* France Initiative
* Netherlands Initiative
And: Albania, Andorra, Argentina, Armenia, Australia, Bolivia, Bosnia and Herz, Brazil, Canada, Cape Verde, Central African Rep, Chile, Colombia, Cuba, Croatia, East Timor, Ecuador, Gabon, Georgia, Guinea-Bissau, Iceland, Israel, Japan, Liechtenstein, Macedonia, Mauritius, Mexico, Montenegro, Nepal, New Zealand, Nicaragua, Norway, Paraguay, São Tomé and Prí, Serbia, Switzerland, United States, Uruguay, Venezuela
List 2: Against the Rights Proposal
Arab League (22) All members of the Arab League - IE Majority 'Islamic' countries!
* Syria Initiative
Afghanistan, Bangladesh, Benin, Brunei, Cameroon, Chad, Côte d'Ivoire, Eritrea, Ethiopia, Fiji, The Gambia, Guinea, Indonesia, Iran, Kazakhstan, Kenya, Malawi, Malaysia, Mali, Maldives, Niger, Nigeria, North Korea, Pakistan, Rwanda, San Marino, Saint Lucia, Senegal, Sierra Leone, Solomon Islands, Swaziland, Tajikistan, Togo, Uganda, Zimbabwe
Now, the point of posting this list is that all of the democracies are in the former category and all of the dictatorships, backwards countries, tin pot leaders and lack of human rights countries are in the latter list. Which list do you think the Bahamas, as an international finance centre and tourism centre belongs on?
You mock the 'enlightened' countries, yet are happy to condemn us to a list of backwards, overly religious, corrupt, tin pot dictatorship run, bogus Republics and just accept that. Who is a bigot there? Do you really want to be on the list with the Islamic republics? Do you really want to be thought of as a Taliban like religious state? Come on, you must see the absolute folly there!

Posted By: knowledgeseeker On: 3/22/2010

Title: think for yourself

@speechless you don't see the point here. Being gay is not a passing fad it's how many people were born. Men who proclaim to be spreading the word of God should focus on Jesus' message of love and inclusion not fueling hate while thumping a Bible.
Not so long ago I would have been someone's property because of my colour and some would have used scriptures to justify that.
Jesus was asked what is the greatest commandment and he said the "the greatest of these is love"
Not once did he mention being gay nor is it in the 10 commandments. Yet we choose to use "God's word" to persecute a group of people he loves just as much as me or who.
Throw the first stone, I dare you.

Posted By: SPEECHLESS On: 3/22/2010

Title: sad

Wow. what is this world coming to?? All of a sudden it is 'in' to be gay and you are wrong to speak out against it?? HMMM??????

Posted By: Matthew On: 3/22/2010

Title: a lil amusin'

While Pastor Bethel's words carried less-than-loving overtones and served to rile people up in blatantly hateful ways, I confess that I was actually quite amused by what he wrote. From the laughable 'statistics' to his very crude, attempts at insinuation I, as someone inoculated against such unskilled rhetoric via simple exposure, general knowledge and a willingness to think for myself, found it to be one of the 'jokiest' things I've read in a while. I was also amused by the good job you did in responding, though given what he wrote any twelve year old should have been able to dismantle it as well. The real commendation I have for you is for your emotional restraint and for avoiding a 'trenching-in' mentality that would have only served to inspire others to 'dig-in' as well. Overall a pretty good day for common sense, now on to the possibility of less sensationalism in the 'news'.

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